PNW Exhibition Match Concerns

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by MrRoboSteve

I enjoy the Double DECCer match (Duluth) and would like to see it in Minneapolis.

While I'm not privy to the reason for no final exhibition match in Minneapolis, I'll guess that it's related to the venue arrangement. In Duluth, the fields are in the same arena, separated by a curtain. In Minneapolis, they're in different buildings. While they're across the street from each other, the ramp entrances used by the robots are about four blocks apart, separated by a street that carries probably 20,000 cars a day.

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Pretty much exactly what I would have said. I don't know what the reasons are, but I know that for the most part the regional planning committee in MN is pretty darn smart about how they do things and if they aren't doing this they must have several strong reasons not to.

[The other Gabe]

I just think it was unfair that all the canburglaring teams were on one side

[Navid Shafa]

Originally Posted by The other Gabe

I just think it was unfair that all the canburglaring teams were on one side

I believe this was unintentional, it looked like they used who was at the time seeds 1, 3, 5 vs. 2, 4, 6

[Foster]

OK, so lets try an easy example

Seed TEAM number
1 1001
2 1002
3 1003
4 1004
5 1005 <Me
6 1006
7 1007
8 1008
9 1009
10 1011
etc.

I know that I can't pick 1001-1004, they are ahead of me. So I focus down list. I can make my pick list from 1006 down and have it.

I think you are implying that 1001 and 1002 can go to teams 2001 and 3001 and say, "we want you", we want to cheesecake you BEFORE the selection, and have them plot and plan from there. I can do the same, I say, hey 4001, I'm the 5th seed, if you don't get picked I want you. If I hear from you tonight, thats great. I can then go to 4003 and say hey, you are second on my first pick list and so on. All you need to do is rank your alliance partners in order and go. It's only a list of 24 teams, it really can't be that hard to bubble them up.

It's an offensive game with no defense, so you are putting together the best alliance you can find.

The only difference is that lunch is 12 hours long.

[Scott Kozutsky]

These exhibition matches are a great way to boost publicity and show off the best that first has to offer. There are enough practice matches that go unfilled that I don't really have any sympathy for the "they get more practice" argument. Raise the floor don't lower the ceiling.

I want to see the best of the best across all the fields at champs do a practice match with each other. That would be great. Just make sure it gets properly recorded.

[Nathan Streeter]

Sweet match. 'nuff said.

[Rachel Lim]

1. It was amazing to watch. From what I've experienced trying to explain to new members what FRC is, showing them what the best teams can do is far more interesting and exciting than showing an average match. It'd have been really exciting to watch at SVR, but as we had qualification match 88 I can't really complain.

2. Is it really going to change anything? The top 6 teams get to the top through practice, and very, very rarely will an additional 2 min 30 sec on the field give them an advantage beyond what they had before getting to the event. However, it was very nice of them to be willing to play an additional match instead of spending the time making adjustments to their robot.

It was exciting. It was inspiring. If everyone playing was willing to play, why shouldn't it be allowed?

[BrendanB]

Originally Posted by Foster

OK, so lets try an easy example

Seed TEAM number
1 1001
2 1002
3 1003
4 1004
5 1005 <Me
6 1006
7 1007
8 1008
9 1009
10 1011
etc.

I know that I can't pick 1001-1004, they are ahead of me. So I focus down list. I can make my pick list from 1006 down and have it.

I think you are implying that 1001 and 1002 can go to teams 2001 and 3001 and say, "we want you", we want to cheesecake you BEFORE the selection, and have them plot and plan from there. I can do the same, I say, hey 4001, I'm the 5th seed, if you don't get picked I want you. If I hear from you tonight, thats great. I can then go to 4003 and say hey, you are second on my first pick list and so on. All you need to do is rank your alliance partners in order and go. It's only a list of 24 teams, it really can't be that hard to bubble them up.

It's an offensive game with no defense, so you are putting together the best alliance you can find.

The only difference is that lunch is 12 hours long.

You do have some good points that are true: every team should have a game plan for alliance selections whether they are 1st or 75th. Everyone needs to be prepared however everything is just big question marks until the alliance selection process begins and the first alliance is formed and starts establishing how the rest of the picks will go down.

The problem is once you get the ability to guarantee you fate/position you can start collaborating to make better, smarter decisions. Usually this involves collaboration on third picks (fourth at champs) and this year we see the large issue of the Can Arms Race in addition to modifying/constructing ramps/can arms on third pick robots for better results. None of this is wrong since if you have the desire to win you need to take every possible road. The issue is only one team on your division has the answer key: #1. There are countless times when no one on the field (even the first pick) knows what's going on because many teams prefer to keep their cards close and especially want to see how Saturday morning shakes out in case of last second breakdowns/breakout performances or potential matches that determine the outcome. Other times when #1 firmly decides who their first pick is and their seeding is solidified they start collaborating. While the argument can be made that this really doesn't change much since #1 has always had this privileged this year it tips the scales a little too much this season with cheesecaking and scheduling move by FIRST.

Yes teams will be tossing and turning all night long wondering what the fate of the morning will bring however it won't be the #1 seeded team and first pick. They'll be working hard to figure out a strong third/fourth round teams and how they can most effectively & efficiently modify them to be on their alliance.

My apologies for derailing this thread these were just some of my thoughts. You can't win an event or the championship without hard work, dedication, practice, and countless hours of preparation. At the event all teams should have the ability to compete fairly and consistently regardless of rank. Its just another nuance of the game that makes the gap between the top tier and lower tier further.

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by Navid Shafa

I believe this was unintentional, it looked like they used who was at the time seeds 1, 3, 5 vs. 2, 4, 6

I just wanted them to make alliances built to score the most points possible, as opposed to just the top 6. But then you get into issues of "well they were ranked 3rd but you didn't put them in obviously favoritism is at work here"

urrgh the OP alliance of Skunks, 4488 and 2471 will never happen now

[Jean Tenca]

Originally Posted by The other Gabe

urrgh the OP alliance of Skunks, 4488 and 2471 will never happen now

There are lots of teams and combinations that would have been a blast to play with. Maybe some more Washington teams would consider driving down to Oregon for Girls Gen in the post season? Otherwise, hopefully we all play some more together at worlds

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Racer26

See, I always thought the twinned regionals (ie. GTREast/West when they were in the same venue, a couple in MN and a few others over the years) should have had a Exhibition match of the winning alliance from both regionals to crown an ultimate winner. I don't think people would decry that as unfair.

At the end of GTR East and West in 2011 I speculated a exhibition match between the winning alliances but neither was very interested in the idea.

[themccannman]

No fun allowed.

254's exhibition match at cmp last year clearly gave them the practice they needed to win last year, it made all the difference... /s

You can complain about every opportunity any other person/team gets, or you can work harder to better yourself, your choice.

[Citrus Dad]

If you have attended the practice sessions the day before competition you know that the top teams already practice together, often in multiple matches. They usually have their robots ready earlier so they can get to the practice field early. Adding one more match (which might break their robot) has no real effect on creating an advantage.

As to the Champs drafts, go ahead and game it out the night before. In 2013 we could have been anywhere between 1 and 6 the next day. We gamed out all of the scenarios. Its a very useful instructive process for how to make decisions under uncertainty. FRC is about more than just building robots.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by themccannman

You can complain about every opportunity any other person/team gets, or you can work harder to better yourself, your choice.

Or you can simultaneously work to improve yourself and level the playing field for all competitors.

[JesseK]

Man, the production value and energy level at PNW Champs was insane! I wish I could have seen the webcast.