New York Districts?

[Dominick Ferone]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I have gone to nyc the last 2 years this year wasnt in it but helped out other teams. and never noticed any field issues. I think I know what your talking about though as some of our mentors and alumni have talked about some sitatuon where there was a big field glitch and they had people come in for extensive testing. Its all fixed now from what I have seen.

Back in 2012 and 2013 we experienced quite a few issues. We had to replay 2 or 3 matches and they even had everyone shut down their smart dashboard and disabled cameras if i remember correctly, which hurt many teams.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

What im wondering now is if first is really looking into this or if this is pure speculation

What I heard is the possibility of having most areas district by 2017.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by Dominick Ferone

Back in 2012 and 2013 we experienced quite a few issues. We had to replay 2 or 3 matches and they even had everyone shut down their smart dashboard and disabled cameras if i remember correctly, which hurt many teams.

I was FTAA at the NYC regional this year. I'll tell you that the Javits Center is an absolutely awful wifi environment. The venue has a number of its own networks all over the 5G spectrum, and a massive hall is not conducive to good reception, either. I know this year, we tried to really stay on top of the wifi environment and make sure it was as good as it could be, and I think that's partially responsible for the lack of major field issues.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by Dunngeon

Please get educated on districts before telling those of us in them to "think about" why they don't work for poorer teams.

Everybody who wants to make serious proposals about NY making a transition to districts should read the entire District Planning Guide thoroughly. It contains all the guidelines FIRST HQ gives to a region when they want to move to districts. I'll try and hit some of the main points

Money
When a region goes to districts, they need to make their own organizational entity (for example, NEFIRST is part of ingenuityNE, a 501(c)(3) created for the purpose of operating New England districts). This organization is responsible for planning and paying for everything a district does (it'll own full field(s), other assets, and pay for the competitions). Think of it as a regional planning committee on steroids. Third event registration fees go entirely to the district, but the organization has to fundraise everything else (support from HQ is minimal, especially after the first year).

Events are recommended to have a total budget of ~25,000 (as compared to ~150,000 for a regional (see Regional Planning Guide, budget section). This is a substantial decrease in costs - especially compared to the NYC Regional, which I've heard costs upwards of $500,000 to put on. There's a reason that (I'd say) the majority of district venues are donated or heavily subsidized - budgets are much tighter and FIRST HQ provides much less assistance. One of the most important parts here is having a strong sponsor/team base who can secure and help plan venue costs.

The district championship is planned like a regional, with a corresponding budget. For a district with 8 events and a championship, you're looking at over $300,000 in event costs (not even factoring in the fact that NYC events will inevitably be more expensive than average). Then factor in other asset investments - a 10 event district needs to own, store, and transport two full fields, a new set of carpet for each event (and transportation of each new set of carpet to the venue), plus the many other little things you need. A field costs ~20,000 for the perimeter, ~2,500 for the plastics, plus all the electronics (can't find data for that, but I'd guess ~10,000). Point is, it all adds up and gets very expensive very quickly.

Events
You need to have enough events spots to ensure that every team can register for 2 (with each event small enough to guarantee 12 matches/team). The sweet spot is typically around 40 teams per event. They should occur in venues with reasonable cost (see above) and be close to as many teams as possible. This is the major problem for NY because it has pockets of high team density, and these pockets are pretty spread out. That means there needs to be smart planning when deciding the size of the districts and location of events. A full state district would probably need 10 events, split evenly between the pockets of teams.

Volunteers
This is probably the most overlooked part. It takes a lot of manpower to run one event, let alone 10. There are a number of key roles that require training beforehand and there's a limit on the number of experienced people to fill those roles. If there aren't enough people to staff events, you can't do districts (this is the current issue facing Minnesota).

tl;dr - There's a lot of components that go into making the transition to districts that you probably haven't thought about. It's a massive logistical and financial problem that requires significant effort to undertake. The people in charge of making the decisions are definitely aware of the desire to switch and are trying to make it happen (and I've talked to some of them about it), but the fact no public announcements have been made means they haven't had real progress with these issues.

super tl;dr - Just read the district planning guide

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Jeanne Boyarsky

Interesting thread. One thing that I didn't see a response to is:



These are the selective schools, not the largest schools. Per wikipedia:
Townsend - 1100
Stuyvesant - 3000
Brooklyn tech - 5400

By contrast, these are non-selective (but still excellent) public schools in Queens, New York City. Both have FRC teams - one rookie; one established.
Francis Lewis - 4000
Cardozo - 4000

While Stuyvesant is a large school, it isn't conducive to a FRC event because you need to take an escalator or elevator to get everywhere. There aren't even rooms to have the pits and field on the same floor. By contrast, Francis Lewis is a flat school. They've been running a FTC qualifier which has gone well.

I wasn't thinking Francis Lewis or Cardoza.. Both would work. In my head i was thinking of the big frc with the big teams

Fl and cardoza have less established teams therefore in my head less likely yo host an event but fl id huge I've been there multiple times (it was my zoned school) ive actually been to all the schools i listed and all the ones you listed so i know my way around them all. I see the issues with brooklyn tech it being so reliant on multi levels.

[Jeanne Boyarsky]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I wasn't thinking Francis Lewis or Cardoza.. Both would work. In my head i was thinking of the big frc with the big teams

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Fl and cardoza have less established teams therefore in my head less likely yo host an event

Cardozo was my zoned school. I hardly went to the cafeteria though so I don't remember if it was on the same floor as the gym. They are a rookie team though. Francis Lewis actually didn't have a FRC team this year, so easy to overlook. They did have a bunch of FTC teams. I'm sure there are other schools of this size/shape as well.

My point still stands . That it's not the # of students that determines suitability for an event. Part of that is layout. Part of it is that these schools were never designed for so many students so the facilities aren't the size one expect. Or rather, someone from outside the area might expect.

My worry is that it will be cramped and/or not enough room for teams to sit and watch. I went to a district event in NJ (just to watch.) It was beautiful. The "small" gym was about the size of the Francis Lewis gym. The "large" gym where the matches were held was huge!

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by mistersands

No love for John Bowne High School?

I am pretty sure I could get an event hosted here. Conveniently located for NYC and Long Island teams, even a decent amount of parking.

In fact, if I had the time and energy, I would be pushing to host an off-season here in the fall.

Forgot about John Bowne I've never been inside but from the outside it looks huge

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Alan Anderson

I don't get it. A lot of what I'm seeing from people on NYC teams seems to be along the lines of "we have unique limitations" without much willingness expressed to either address the limitations or consider alternative approaches. Am I just not "hearing" it right? Is it a "New York" way of saying things that I'm not picking up on?



I would think holding an event outside NYC would be a good thing for people wearing NYC-only blinders, not something to be presented a priori as a problem. (I'd call it expanding their horizons, but I've spent time in NYC, and the concept of a horizon there is often a tricky one.)



What is keeping the team's leadership from asking the school to reassess their fundraising policy in view of the specific financial needs of a robotics team? That's even without looking into what "fundraiser" means and whether it would be possible to do an ongoing/open-ended one that satisfies the existing policy.

There may be a little confusion.

Most of the big NYC teams concerns
1.money
2.transportation(parents dont have cars)

Most of the big Long island Teams concerns
1.money
2.travel time

Most of the upstate teams issues
1.travel distance to nyc
2. I don't know what they are doing up there but i haven't heard anyone from upstate say they didn't have enough money to travel

Some of what you are hearing about nyc problems in this thread are broader issues.

Any championships should be where the highest concentration of teams are, not the "central location" of the state.

Side note

Traveling to long island for nyc teams is also very easy with a hop on the subway to the LIRR. Having a dcmp in long island would work too but also give another 45- 1 hour of travel time to upstate people.

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

There may be a little confusion.

Most of the big NYC teams concerns
1.money
2.transportation(parents dont have cars)

Most of the big Long island Teams concerns
1.money
2.travel time

Most of the upstate teams issues
1.travel distance to nyc
2. I don't know what they are doing up there but i haven't heard anyone from upstate say they didn't have enough money to travel

Some of what you are hearing about nyc problems in this thread are broader issues.

Any championships should be where the highest concentration of teams are, not the "central location" of the state.

Side note

Traveling to long island for nyc teams is also very easy with a hop on the subway to the LIRR. Having a dcmp in long island would work too but also give another 45- 1 hour of travel time to upstate people.

There are most certainly teams upstate with similar problems relating to money and travel time.

A championship in NYC would be 6 hours away from teams in Buffalo and Potsdam, while an Albany championship is 5 hours away from the tip of Long Island.

I won't say which is better, but either one is hurting quite a few teams.

And remember, only the top 60 teams or so would travel to the district championship, and they additionally have the choice to decline.

Additionally, public transit connects Rochester to Albany, as well as NYC to Albany in a straight line, whereas going via public transit from Rochester to NYC takes seven hours.

Regardless of the DCMP location, a discussion about this subject in a formal setting needs to occur ASAP.

[Lil' Lavery]

The fact that a portion of team will end up spending more money on travel when they compete in three events than they do currently competing in one event shouldn't be as controversial as it is.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

The fact that a portion of team will end up spending more money on travel when they compete in three events than they do currently competing in one event shouldn't be as controversial as it is.

A lot of people seem to forget (or ignore?) that your district events are going to be at either the same places as the regionals currently are or closer than. Yeah, one might be further away, but the other won't be.

And regarding NY DCMP, if FiM can get 102 teams to work in Grand Rapids (NOT Metro-Detroit), surely 40-60 teams in anywhere is doable. (That said, NYC is expensive!)

[cmrnpizzo14]

I would like to try to clear some things up about NY here as many people I see aren't from NY and seem to have some things messed up. (Personally I feel that NYC and Long Island would be able to make their own state quite successfully)

1.) Rochester and NYC are in no way close.

Whatever Google maps says, add a significant amount of time to get in and out of the city. I know several people that park outside of the city and then take the train in because they feel that it is faster than simply trying to drive in.

2.)Albany, geographically, is in the middle (roughly).

Albany is geographically as close as it comes to the center of NY while still being in a city. Also would like to point out that Albany is the capital of NY, not NYC as some new college friends seem to have thought. This is a 4 hour drive away from teams in Rochester. Add an hour for Buffalo area, subtract one for Syracuse. 1 highway the entire way, easy drive. Easy to do with parents/bus.

I don't know what the NYC mindset is about sending their children to the upstate farmland but as it has been shown before it would be less than $150 to send 1 student up to Albany just based off of transportation and hotel. I don't know why a team would consider commuting from the city up to Albany and back in a day, hotels are the way to go. This cost is more than anyone wants but definitely doable. There are enough businesses in NYC that would be willing to sponsor teams if you ask.

3.)It is much harder for upstate teams to go to the city than for the city teams to go upstate.

Yes, upstate teams have more parent support in terms of transportation as well as high budgets (cannot confirm, never actually worked with a NYC team. Just going off what people have said). A trip to Albany though is significantly cheaper than a trip down to the city. 8-9 hour bus ride, city hotels, transportation once your there, and general cost of being in the city all adds up. Relying on parents for driving also adds the cost of parking. I live in Boston now, I imagine that NYC parking costs are similar. I can say that parking on campus here can get up to $45/day. Albany or Troy would be much cheaper.

I understand that parents in NYC don't have cars but honestly for moving an entire team a bus is honestly easier anyways. Not sure about the cost but between thruway tolls in NY, and gas money, I don't think that a bus would even cost that much more per person.

TL;DR, I think NY should be one district, championships should be in/around Albany, upstate teams have problems too.

[MikLast]

Referencing the PNW district, the Seattle area has about 3 district events, Maybe NYC can have a couple, then have some in the upstate area for the other teams, then have the DCMP in a central area (Albany?) or have it switch every year, from NYC to Albany (and i think PNW is doing that, Portland to Cheney, or is that just random?)

[mistersands]

Originally Posted by cmrnpizzo14

There are enough businesses in NYC that would be willing to sponsor teams if you ask.

This is surprisingly untrue in my experience. I, and my students, have been desperately contacting businesses, big and small, and nobody is biting. What you usually hear is 'We don't give to after school clubs, only charities' or 'We can only support programs in schools that are attended by our employees' children'. And that's great for the well known schools where the engineers send their kids (Brooklyn Tech, Stuyvesant, Bronx Science) but not so much for our school. We're still working on it though.

We also are based in Flushing, Queens. So the businesses in our area tend to be very different than Manhattan or Brooklyn. And the businesses in Manhattan and Brooklyn seem to only sponsor teams in their Burroughs.

Yes, upstate teams have more parent support in terms of transportation as well as high budgets (cannot confirm, never actually worked with a NYC team. Just going off what people have said).

For reference, our budget this year was approximately $8000. That was from two big sponsors last year, Pershing Square Foundation and Port Authority of the NY and NJ. We had NASA last year to cover our entry fee and banked most of the other sponsor money for this year. We also had some fundraisers, but they don't go very well.

So after NYC Regional fee, we had about $3000 to work with. Pershing Square sponsored us again this year, so we can bank that for next year's regional.

TL;DR, I think NY should be one district, championships should be in/around Albany, upstate teams have problems too.

I don't necessarily disagree. I might argue for Binghamton instead of Albany. And as long as there are enough district events that we can attend downstate (Maybe one in the Bronx, one on Long Island, one in Queens)

But the NYC regional has a lot of international teams and it would be a shame to lose them.

[Sperkowsky]

Just figured i would add going to Pennsylvania and new Jersey is easier for a nyc team to do then going upstate sometimes.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Just figured i would add going to Pennsylvania and new Jersey is easier for a nyc team to do then going upstate sometimes.

Just a thought, going along with Chris's sentiment earlier:

If NY State was in districts, NE was in districts, and MAR was in districts, (and oh why not, the Ohio Valley was also in districts) and (the important part) nobody cared which two district events any given team went to as long as they went to two, where would NYC, Upstate, and Albany area teams tend to go, given current team distribution and current/theoretically proposed event locations?

Now, just to add more factors: Assume that each District system had its own championship, no combining. Where do you put the DCMP? Conversely, assume that NY State, NE, and MAR combined for one DCMP (or whatever you want to call it). Where do you put that one?

Just a fun, semirandom thought experiment.