FIRST Championship in years 2021+

[Basel A]

There has been a lot of discussion about FIRST's decision to have split championships for the years 2017-2020. With only small changes that can be made to FIRST's plan, I'm not sure how much FIRST HQ or we, as a community, are getting out of it. Here's what I do know: with FIRST learning that west coast venues need to be reserved way in advance, HQ needs to be making decisions soon for the Championship in years 2021+.

Therefore, I believe it would be much more productive for us to discuss what FIRST HQ should do for the years where there is still latitude for them to do what the community would like. The first step is knowing where FRC will be by then. How many teams will there be? How many areas will be governed by districts?

While I don't anticipate that we'll come to a consensus on where FRC will be, the next step is to determine the progression to the final championship. How many teams should be at the final championship, and how do they get there? A couple options: directly from regionals and district CMPs (like now) or from super regionals. How many super regionals? How many teams at each? How do they qualify to be there? What locations would be ideal for those events?

Discuss.

[George Nishimura]

Based on what they said in the presentation, their plan at the moment is probably to create another Championship to meet demand. Obviously it depends on what they have learned from this experience, how the two Championships will work in 2017, and the projected number of teams in 2021.

Expect 2+ Championships (maybe a name change).

[JB987]

Well, if the use of convention space for fields (as is planned for Houston and Detroit at this point) works out, I know of a great site for a western location...

The Las Vegas Convention Center (LVCC), located adjacent to the Las Vegas Strip, encompasses approximately 3.2 million square feet with exhibit space of 2 million square feet and meeting space of nearly 250,000 square feet. The facility is one of the most modern and functional centers in the world - centrally located within walking distance of 100,000 guest rooms.

They are also adding another million plus square feet to be available within 5-7 years. We also have one of the best international airports in the US with tons of economical flights ...and the weather in April is amazing

[mwmac]

Originally Posted by JB987

Well, if the use of convention space for fields (as is planned for Houston and Detroit at this point) works out, I know of a great site for a western location...

The Las Vegas Convention Center (LVCC), located adjacent to the Las Vegas Strip, encompasses approximately 3.2 million square feet with exhibit space of 2 million square feet and meeting space of nearly 250,000 square feet. The facility is one of the most modern and functional centers in the world - centrally located within walking distance of 100,000 guest rooms.

They are also adding another million plus square feet to be available within 5-7 years. We also have one of the best international airports in the US with tons of economical flights ...and the weather in April is amazing

+1!
Would be great to have one of the champs in LV!

[Foster]

I'm all for the senseless waste of electrons, but those champs are in the far distant future, lots could change and will change before then.

For example the original poster will have graduated from college (2016), got the dream job, then went on a blind date set up by friends, they got married and had children (congrats on the twins!!!) all before FIRST needs to plan anything else.

In the same time frame Mark and Larry decided to stop spending their fortunes on hoodies and sailboats and both donated a billion dollars to robotics research. This created a huge demand and interest in robotics programs. There are now 76,000 FIRST and 140,000 VEX teams around the world. Over half of them are in India and China.

So I'm working on saving my money for the 2021 World Championship to be held in Beijing.

Carry on...

[Basel A]

Feel free to disregard this as absurd, but you can also look at facts. FIRST was unable to secure any west coast venue for 2018, and they finalised venues in 2015. Let's be generous and say they were only one year too late. That means finalised venues for 2021 are needed by 2017, which means negotiations in 2016. Is an entire plan necessary at the time of venue reservation? No. But it would certainly help, I would think. Therefore, roughly the next 12 months is the right/only time to give our input.

We certainly don't know where FRC will be by then. But FIRST HQ will too be flying blind when they make these plans. Why wait to give our input?

I'll jump in and give my suggestions in the next day or two.

[EricH]

I'm with Basel. Plan now, work on effecting change now, act surprised when it happens like you figured it would.

Assumptions: FIRST wants to keep some % of teams, say 25 or so, attending; districts are a thing in most of FRC; people have figured out that 2 geographically separated champs isn't a bad thing.

What I would expect...
Known districts: MI, PNW, MAR, NE, IN, TX (future--2 seasons from now?).
Assumed districts: MN, CA, Canada, and let's just figure a couple more in and around the Midwest for good measure.

The championships: Detroit maintains its contract and serves as the Northern Championship, MI, MN, Canada, IN, and other northern Midwest districts attending. Houston also maintains its contract (or loses it to New Orleans or one of the other Texas cities), serving as Southern Championship for TX, LA, southern Midwest/Great Plains, Mexico. A Western Championship is opened up, this for CA, PNW, HI, Australia, China, and the states on Mountain time. (And Arizona.) Location in Vegas, or Salt Lake City, or L.A. (I can dream, right?) And, on the East Coast, there's an Eastern Championship, for NE, MAR, and the rest of the Atlantic coast, as well as Europe and Israel. Each of the four has 200-400 teams.

"Interconnecting"--teams attending other area Championships is done by allocating about a quarter of spots at each championship event for teams from the other three events, and using a lottery signup system to award those "out-of-area" spots.

Sometime around 2022, somebody realizes that having a Final Four is really a slick idea, and we start again on the Super Regional model, with each Championship as a super Regional.

[Jacob Bendicksen]

Originally Posted by EricH

snip

I think this is on the money. As much as I don't like the idea of multiple championships, this seems like the likely outcome. Hopefully these championships will indeed turn into Super-Regionals and the World Championship will be back someday.

I'm just having a hard time thinking about the fact that this upcoming Championship is the last 'real' Championship, at least for a while. So much of the draw for me lies in meeting people from around the world, and while regional championships make a lot of financial sense, it won't be the same.

Your proposal is (hopefully) pointing towards an eventual return of the Championship, and I really like that idea.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Foster

So I'm working on saving my money for the 2021 World Championship to be held in Beijing.

Carry on...

Good luck with that. We just booked our off-season trip flying through Beijing and its over $1,500/person with 15 hour layovers!

[JB987]

Originally Posted by EricH

I'm with Basel. Plan now, work on effecting change now, act surprised when it happens like you figured it would.

Assumptions: FIRST wants to keep some % of teams, say 25 or so, attending; districts are a thing in most of FRC; people have figured out that 2 geographically separated champs isn't a bad thing.

What I would expect...
Known districts: MI, PNW, MAR, NE, IN, TX (future--2 seasons from now?).
Assumed districts: MN, CA, Canada, and let's just figure a couple more in and around the Midwest for good measure.

The championships: Detroit maintains its contract and serves as the Northern Championship, MI, MN, Canada, IN, and other northern Midwest districts attending. Houston also maintains its contract (or loses it to New Orleans or one of the other Texas cities), serving as Southern Championship for TX, LA, southern Midwest/Great Plains, Mexico. A Western Championship is opened up, this for CA, PNW, HI, Australia, China, and the states on Mountain time. (And Arizona.) Location in Vegas, or Salt Lake City, or L.A. (I can dream, right?) And, on the East Coast, there's an Eastern Championship, for NE, MAR, and the rest of the Atlantic coast, as well as Europe and Israel. Each of the four has 200-400 teams.

"Interconnecting"--teams attending other area Championships is done by allocating about a quarter of spots at each championship event for teams from the other three events, and using a lottery signup system to award those "out-of-area" spots.

Sometime around 2022, somebody realizes that having a Final Four is really a slick idea, and we start again on the Super Regional model, with each Championship as a super Regional.

All sound great, Eric. Where do we get the extra week or two needed for this model? FIRST would have to break from the current time frame paradigm and add time to the front end or back end of the season, right?

[Tyler Olds]

Originally Posted by JB987

Well, if the use of convention space for fields (as is planned for Houston and Detroit at this point) works out, I know of a great site for a western location...

The Las Vegas Convention Center (LVCC), located adjacent to the Las Vegas Strip, encompasses approximately 3.2 million square feet with exhibit space of 2 million square feet and meeting space of nearly 250,000 square feet. The facility is one of the most modern and functional centers in the world - centrally located within walking distance of 100,000 guest rooms.

They are also adding another million plus square feet to be available within 5-7 years. We also have one of the best international airports in the US with tons of economical flights ...and the weather in April is amazing

I have to agree that flights to Vegas are very economical. If you have an Allegiant hub near-by it is extremely cheap (minus the baggage fees). I am flying out from Wisconsin next week non-stop and my ticket was $250 round-trip. I have gotten lucky before and had <$200 flights.

P.S.
RIP Riviera (at least I will get to see it on the outside one last time next week). I mean I never went in there anyways because I am <50 but still sad to see the old relics go.

[JB987]

Hey Tyler,
PM me if you want to stop by and check out our toys and shop!

[EricH]

Originally Posted by JB987

All sound great, Eric. Where do we get the extra week or two needed for this model? FIRST would have to break from the current time frame paradigm and add time to the front end or back end of the season, right?

You'll notice that I didn't mention anything about district championships...

Let's look a little closer at the end of the season.

Week 6: last district/regional events. Smaller DCMPs.
Week 7: DCMPs
Week 8: currently empty, but for the 1st split, this is CMP #1 by time IIRC.
Week 9: Current CMP, in future CMP #2.

But if you apply all those 4 championships +1 championship, you have Week 8 as CMP #1-4 and Week 9 as the Final Four (or whatever you actually call it.)

But what if... you moved all the DCMPs to Week 6, or eliminated them altogether (given that you've got enough districts to cover most everybody)? Now you've got Week 7 to play with. This could take some of the CMPs (though that could be a bit rough) or be used for fundraising.

[JB987]

Your suggestions are plausible, Eric. Would the changes be more workable if there was an adoption of a universal point system including district and regional performances?

[EricH]

Originally Posted by JB987

Your suggestions are plausible, Eric. Would the changes be more workable if there was an adoption of a universal point system including district and regional performances?

Sssshh! Don't tell them about that part!


Yep, I not only see a universal point system making changes more workable, but also more LIKELY. We're seeing it already for interdistrict play.


The other thing I can see coming is MORE interdistrict play, followed in the long run by a total lifting of travel restrictions into/out of district systems. Attend event, earn points applied to home district if you have one (or home regional block--any remaining regionals for teams that don't have districts would theoretically block together for X spots at any given championship awarded by spot on the points list if you weren't one of the "standard six" qualifiers), attend home DCMP if there is one, and go on up the CMP ladder as far as your points will take you. If that happens, I think we'll see a sudden explosion of FRC inspiration from within, and possibly a bunch more teams traveling a ways.



Just so folks are clear, I've been thinking almost from the split announcement that this is the way things are going in the long haul--and I've come right out and said it, too, in multiple places. Some tidbits out of the town hall meeting further reinforced that thought. But I'm not sure if this is going to be 5 years out or 10 years out or farther or closer.