FTC Leagues

[FTC0839]

Massachusetts implemented a Pilot of the League format last year. Due to my miscommunication as Coach, we were not signed up for any League, so we did not participate, although I attended as a guest (and Lead Robot Inspector ... oh my!!).
This coming season, we are going full-forward. I have several concerns:
- logistics: as a Judge Advisor for a 24-team FLL Qualifier, I know I personally spent dozens of hours before the event organizing and recruiting volunteers; to do this every month would be insane
- setup: we typically have an army of volunteers who spend a few hours setting up - it's not an hour job for a couple people
- matches: our "League" consists of a maximum of 5 teams - doesn't the random number generator for 4 teams get a little boring? And 5 matches for 4 teams is less than an hour with break time in between - not really worth travelling an hour and all the planning/setup?
- "vision": if we are trying to replicate the sports model by having more playing time, it would de-emphasize community service, and the use of technology for discovery's sake (CAD, 3-D printing, sensors, etc.)
- timing: we are a Junior High team, so we have pretty much a whole brand new team every year - trying to get results and still allow time for learning is difficult with a 6-week build season [I was in FRC for 12 years, so I know about a compact season with high school students.]
- money: we're lucky if we break even on the FLL Qualifier - how much would it cost the hosting team?
- spectators: cafeterias don't work - without stadium seating of bleachers, it's very spectator un-friendly; most schools don't allow metal stuff in gyms
- statistics: if only 1 or 2 "top" teams from each League proceed to the League Championship, how does that mean anything from an absolute ranking?

I'm big-time confused.

I'd appreciate any input from any team who has experienced this format already. I haven't registered the team yet due to these concerns, and also confusion over purchasing the phones through FIRST or retail.


Thank you.

Jay
Head Coach, FTC0839
[PS We are a community-based team, not a school team]

[GeeTwo]

While I haven't done this before, if you're going to have a five team event, it makes more sense to do at least double round-robin matching. That is, each team plays each other twice (for a total of 20 matches, of which each team plays 8), or three times (for a total of 30 matches, of which each team plays 12), and so on. With five teams and just a bit of juggling, it's easy to ensure that no team plays consecutive matches, and no teams play each other twice without each playing at least two other matches in between. Here's an example triple round robin:

Originally Posted by triple round robin

Round a1: teams play adjacent teams (modulo/clock arithmetic)
1 vs 2, 3 vs 4, 1 vs 5, 2 vs 3, 4 vs 5

round b1: teams play non-adjacent teams (modulo/clock arithmetic)
1 vs 3, 2 vs 4, 3 vs 5, 1 vs 4, 2 vs 5

round a2: adjacent again
3 vs 4, 1 vs 5, 2 vs 3, 4 vs 5, 1 vs 2

round b2: non-adjacent again
3 vs 5, 1 vs 4, 2 vs 5, 1 vs 3, 2 vs 4

round 3a
1 vs 5, 2 vs 3, 4 vs 5, 1 vs 2, 3 vs 4

round 3b
2 vs 5, 1 vs 3, 2 vs 4, 3 vs 5, 1 vs 4

Just alternate the "A" and B" sets of matches, selecting a start point that does not include either of the teams in the preceding match.

With a small setup like this, it might make sense to take some intentional breaks (perhaps between round robins) for outreach, networking, maker fair, and such. You may want to encourage teams to let their drive/pit teams not have specific tasks during these breaks so they can take in the inspiration and expansion of horizons.

If you can't find a venue with bleachers and a usable floor, it may be worthwhile to rent or borrow or even buy a "performance surface" which you spread atop the gym floor upon which you can do robots. This might be a carpet, dance floor, gymnastics floor, wrestling mats, or something else. If I understand the FTC size, it is possible that you can find a nearby FRC team with a roll of carpet they use for their practice field that they can loan you for the afternoon that will provide enough "buffer" to play an FTC game. An FRC team may also be able to provide a lot of the manpower to host the event (For the local Fountainbleu FLL tournament, FRC 3946 provides about half the manpower: essentially all of the refereeing/field reset, and a bit of judging. For the LA state FLL tournament we provide about half the refereeing and field reset, and a bunch of other manpower. We also host an FLL "quick start" and bring a few bits of of equipment to the local tournament, and mentor FLL teams at two nearby middle schools.)
With a small setup like this, it might make sense to take some intentional breaks (perhaps between round robins) for outreach, networking, maker fair, and such. You may want to encourage teams to let their drive/pit teams not have specific tasks during these breaks so they can take in the inspiration and expansion of horizons.

[gblake]

I'll throw Foster under the bus. He and other VRC folks have become expert at the sort of small event logistics you are asking about. Maybe send him a PM.

I can't imagine that frequent league tournaments, for a league of five teams will involve anything remotely close to the hoopla of an ordinary FTC once-per-season FTC tournament.

However, I'm a little confused, are you asking for advice for doing/being a league, or for speculation about how someone else will make it happen?

For only five teams, you could hold a league "event" at my house. One and a half fields, a couple of laptop computers, some folding chairs, whatever other odds and ends FTC fields require, etc...

Blake

[Mr V]

Contact your Senior Mentor he can get you up to speed on everything. He posts around here as Rosiebotboss or look here. http://www.usfirst.org/community/vol...mentor-program he is in your town. Are you sure that it is going to be only a 5 team league? Maybe not everyone has signed up yet since it is summer and many of the coaches for the school based teams don't get around to signing up until school comes around again.

[Nemo]

We did leagues in Iowa last year. A few notes:

All teams in the league played in the league championship. A handful of those advanced to State.

League meets have less teams and no judging, so the volunteer force is much smaller. We got by on something like 12 volunteers compared to something like 50 for a qualifier event in previous years. It's still an issue to recruit people for so many events. We had a couple of parents step up to be our volunteer coordinators, which helped immensely. We still funneled contacts and helped them recruit, but they could at least organize us to figure out what positions needed attention.

Setup is still an issue, but if you have some overlap between events, people get pretty fast at it eventually, so it's less important to have lots of setup time after the first event is in the books. Next year there's no Field Control System, so you can scratch that from the to-do list.

Finding venues is an interesting process, to be sure. Just remember that you can get away with using a smaller space than you're used to for 24 qualifiers. We used a small gym at a middle school, a theater at a library, and a small high school gym. If there's a space somewhere that looks good, it's often possible to talk that place into hosting you for free if you can get their ear and tell them what FIRST is all about.

Our leagues were 12 teams each, and even that got repetitive after multiple events. Only having 5 teams in league does sound boring unless they're the type of teams that iterate a lot between events and surprise you each time.

Not being able to mix with other leagues unless we advance to State was a huge drawback of leagues for me. Not having judging or playoff rounds are also big drawbacks. In my opinion, qualifiers provide a superior event experience to teams. I can empathize with the overworked key volunteers in Iowa, so I understand why they made the change. I'd prefer a future with a lot more event volunteers and the return of the qualifier event system.

[FTC0839]

Dan, thank you very much for the specific feedback!! ... And empathy.

[Foster]

Originally Posted by gblake

I'll throw Foster under the bus. He and other VRC folks have become expert at the sort of small event logistics you are asking about. Maybe send him a PM.

Ahh I love the smell of diesel in the morning.

Cafeterias are your friend! Build in works spaces with seating. Give each team a table and they are set. The tables roll so you can set the space up the way you want very quickly.

Haven't looked at this years FTC game, but historically VEX games have teams on two sides of the field. That leaves you room to put a few chairs on the other two sides. People can sit in the chairs and see, and people can stand behind the chairs and see. Now rather than 12' away they are 3' away and can see the action!!!

-- Logistics note: Open up with "no roboteers in the seats, they are for guests only. Depending on the game, if a game piece comes out, pick it up and PUT it back in where it came out. Don't interfere with the game or the referee" (Oh and full event producers will hate you later on when people want to get close to the field)

Make each team give you a helper. Make the team that just played do field reset.

Setup should take about an hour. Ask parents to help. The first time you setup mark the lines with tape, but at each seam cut the tape long and tuck the ends under. When you take the tiles up, the tape stays on the tiles. No need to retape. Don't take the perimeter completely apart. (PM me and I can explain how to do this) Don't take the game apart more than you need to for transport.

Not sure what to tell you on the cost. In the past we've had each team hold an event, they don't charge since they pick up the minor charge for their "home" and at the end of the season the cost works out. Get one of the home team parents to sell candy and bottled water if you need some funding.

Key Point -> Build the concept of "this is a community" You are not holding an event, the league community is holding an event. Everyone comes, everyone helps, everyone plays, everyone has a good time. Once you start charging for an event past the "Hey we need $15 per team to cover the cost of the custodial people" then people get a sense of entitlement. Get the people together that are supplying the venues and figure out the minimal costs and split them across the teams. You don't need all the fancy AV equipment, etc. that drives the cost up.

Remember, it's supposed to be fun. It's not that hard to do if you don't get carried away.

[FTC0839]

Originally Posted by Foster

Ahh I love the smell of diesel in the morning.

It smells like victory!!

Foster,
Thank you very much for the detailed thoughts!

Simplicity is not my forte ... mix that with OCD and being a worry-wort, and ... thank God for Zantac!

[FTC0839]

As a follow-up, I had a productive, lengthy conversation with our State FTC Partner, and also a discussion with a fellow League Coach. Here are the updates:
- logistics: a) since League Meets are more casual and smaller, volunteer resources are less, b) a League should be able to - as a community - provide shared resources for the events, so the burden on any 1 coordinator is less
- setup: since there is only 1 field, setup should be easily done
- matches: the League Team listing was just a preliminary - it is anticipated once the League kicks off, additional teams will be on board and, with adjustments as necessary, Leagues will be 10-15 teams
- "vision": the kids want more playing time, but since there is no formal judging at the League Meets, the timeline for the other activities (community service, etc.) is essentially unchanged
- timing: with only 8 weeks until the first Meet (then every 4 weeks thereafter), it will be a Coach's management challenge to focus the brainstorm & prototype phase and quickly get to building, and somehow squeeze CAD prototyping, CNC, sensors, autonomice, etc. for later phases of the project, but still including design development
- money: most FTC competitions are hosted by a school team, so the costs are mostly indirect (cost center transfer from school line item to town line item) - as a non-school based team, our costs are direct, "real" money, so we'll have to "get creative" or not be able to host since our direct costs would be somewhere around $1,000 (?) to hire town personnel (police [1 per 50], 1 EMT and 2 custodians)
- spectators: I still don't like a cafeteria setup, but maybe the rolling bleachers for FLL we use might be enough
- statistics: apparently every team participate in the League Championship, so there is a statistical quantity for proceeding to the States, and 20-30%'ish will proceed


I hope this journey was useful to those who read the entries - if anyone else has personal FTC League experience to share, I'd appreciate it.

[Foster]

If you anticipate having extra time then change your schedule to add a seminar in the first part of the day. For example, doors open at 8:30. 9-10 is a seminar on how to CAD. 10:30 first match of the day. You can run multiple tracks at the same time.

I was gobsmacked by the estimate of $1000 per event for external people. I know that roboteer hooliganism is on the rise, but really a police person for every 50 people? Likewise an EMT? Is this mandated by the venue or by your local FTC organization?

[FTC0839]

Foster,
Thanks for the idea on having workshops.
The hiring of other town personnel was town policy for outside organizations using town facilities. However, I will be challenging such for small League Meets.

[Mr V]

There should be no reason that you should hold a league event. There are going to be 10-15 teams in your league and there should be 2 or 3 teams that are school based that can get their facility for free. So just worry about providing some set up or tear down help and/or a reset person.

[FTC0839]

Mr. V,
Thanks for the input.
Yes it would be nice if Anyone else would do it, but I prefer to be Someone to make sure that No One doesn't do it.**
If a school steps up to get one done for $150, we can always cancel ours. But if we don't get on the calendar, it's not an option. And, as I said in the previous post, I will try to negotiate the facility for free.
Jay

**http://betterlifecoachingblog.com/20...ne-and-no-one/

[FTC0839]

Blake,
Thanks for the thoughts. I was looking to gain from the experience of others who have already been through the FTC League process in a similar situation.

[FTC0839]

Gus,
Thank you for the thoughts and suggestions.