Team CMP Assignment 2017

[Michael Blake]

Originally Posted by Dunngeon

No one drives that distance, all teams from PNW (and I'd hazard west coast) fly.

Ryan... AMAZING they can afford all those airplane tickets for students, mentors, school administration, team-parents... and then transportation (local bus?) around hotels and meals... AND they can get someone to trailer their equipment to St. Louis and back.

They must be spending per team in the $15,000.00-$20,000.00 range just for transportation if they're taking their entire teams to CHAMPS!

--Michael Blake

[Jacob Bendicksen]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Ryan... AMAZING they can afford all those airplane tickets for students, mentors, school administration, team-parents... and then transportation (local bus?) around hotels and meals... AND they can get someone to trailer their equipment to St. Louis and back.

They must be spending per team in the $15,000.00-$20,000.00 range just for transportation if they're taking their entire teams to CHAMPS!

--Michael Blake

Yep - I don't know of anyone who drove their entire team from the PNW to St. Louis this year. There were several teams who drove trailers and rented out space to other teams (our forklift didn't fit in our crate, so we sent it with 1510), but everyone else flew.

It ain't cheap goin' to champs from the PNW!

[thatnameistaken]

What if, instead of teams, the regionals were assigned to a specific CMP? For example, if a team earned a CMP slot at the 2017 St. Louis regional, they would automatically qualify for the St. Louis CMP, regardless of where the team is actually located. This would keep the number of teams that qualify for each CMP roughly equal. Additionally, teams that want to ensure they can go to a particular CMP can do so by picking a corresponding regional.

I'm not sure how districts would play into this; if a district team travels to a regional and earns a CMP slot at the opposite venue their district is assigned, which event should they (initially) qualify for?

[Brian Maher]

Originally Posted by thatnameistaken

What if, instead of teams, the regionals were assigned to a specific CMP? For example, if a team earned a CMP slot at the 2017 St. Louis regional, they would automatically qualify for the St. Louis CMP, regardless of where the team is actually located. This would keep the number of teams that qualify for each CMP roughly equal. Additionally, teams that want to ensure they can go to a particular CMP can do so by picking a corresponding regional.

This was my immediate thought when I first heard about Championsplit. It allows for a nice, even division before the season even starts. To allow for teams to attend either championship without taking on an extra travel burder to attend their farther championship, there can be a wait list for both championships, and allow any team register for one or both of them.

Originally Posted by thatnameistaken

I'm not sure how districts would play into this; if a district team travels to a regional and earns a CMP slot at the opposite venue their district is assigned, which event should they (initially) qualify for?

The solution is simple: assign each district to a championship, and it gets however many spots at that district.

If a team qualifies for champs at a regional and their regional and district CMPs are different, give them a choice. If they choose the Regional CMP, give the district an extra spot for its assigned championship. If they choose their district's championship, generate an extra wild card for the regional.

[thatnameistaken]

Originally Posted by BMSOTM

If a team qualifies for champs at a regional and their regional and district CMPs are different, give them a choice. If they choose the Regional CMP, give the district an extra spot for its assigned championship. If they choose their district's championship, generate an extra wild card for the regional.

This makes a lot of sense. While it ends up generating an extra slot in the end, I don't think it would be a frequent enough occurrence to result in too many teams qualifying.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by mwmac

In my opinion, a geographic assignment model is not the simplest or fairest model for CMP venue assignment nor is it easily scalable. One complication that First has already identified is that it necessitates the creation of some formulation to permit teams to attend their non-home CMP. Of course, such a formulation would also require the creation of a rule set that governs the total number of non-home requests per season and per team and per time frame etc.

Actually, it is. To a point. The formulation can be rather simple: you start with the HoF teams and defending champions, figure out where they're going. (It's easier after the first year, because you have each event's defending champions.) Defending champions automatically go to their defending event--regardless of whether it's their home event--and HoF teams split about 50-50 by number (ask them which one they want to go to, and "time in HoF" is the tiebreaker if one event is full before the other).

The geographic assignment is actually quite scalable. It already covers the entire known FRC world. And it's quite simple: you'll go to the closest one to you (not necessarily measured in DISTANCE, mind you--could be measured in time or dollars) unless Plan B is invoked. Fair... Sorry, but life isn't fair.

Plan B is the "I want to go to the other championship" plan. I like the one outlined earlier by Basel: online, switch with either anyone or with a specific team. Simple, and it works.

Another issue with geographic team assignment is that it may, in the interest of maintaining equal numbers between venues, necessitate a regular revisiting of area boundaries as team growth rates are quite varied across the First landscape.

And that's a bad thing how? I wouldn't just anticipate a revisiting of area boundaries, but how about a regular revisiting of "Is this at the level it needs to be", "Do we need another CMP-level event", and other similar questions. And if those are addressed every couple of years or so, then that is a good thing.

I recognize that teams situated near each of the championsplit venues would be open to incurring higher travel costs should they be randomly assigned to the distant venue. That is the main drawback to this method that I see. However, as Orlando, Houston, Atlanta, St. Louis et al can attest, no venue lasts forever. I do believe this approach should at least be given some consideration by the First committee as an alternative to their geographic method.

As noted, we're not talking "higher" travel costs. We're talking HIGHER and HIGHER travel costs. Basically, if you're in TX or MI, you need to WANT to go to the other venue (reason for wanting to is up to your team--but there isn't anything saying FIRST can't offer an incentive). That simple.



I did notice the part about reducing travel burdens, or rather sharing them around. I think the best method there is to manage to get the Detroit CMP moved to the West Coast after the Detroit contract expires. (Houston can go to Atlanta or the East Coast.) I think that's somewhat reasonable, no?

[dodar]

Somewhere in California for the West Coast Championship and back to Atlanta for the East Coast Championship.

*Tongue in Cheek* Then back to the original high school gym for The Championship

[Michael Blake]

Is there any data out there on what percentage of teams fly to CHAMPS versus using ground transportation?

And is it usual practice for teams that fly to also rent local vans/buses for getting around venue/hotel/restaurants?

--Michael Blake

[BBray_T1296]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Is there any data out there on what percentage of teams fly to CHAMPS versus using ground transportation?

And is it usual practice for teams that fly to also rent local vans/buses for getting around venue/hotel/restaurants?

--Michael Blake

When I went with my team to CMP (once in Atlanta, once to STL) both times we used the subway/metro and walked.

Not sure on exact numbers but the STL airport was very crowded with many many teams. I imagine a majority of teams >500 miles (and reasonably close to a regional airport) fly to championships.

On our team, and I assume for lots of teams especially far from champs (PNW etc) only allow the most dedicated team members to go. It is certainly cost prohibitive to move lots of people across the country any way you try.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Is there any data out there on what percentage of teams fly to CHAMPS versus using ground transportation?

And is it usual practice for teams that fly to also rent local vans/buses for getting around venue/hotel/restaurants?

--Michael Blake

For the teams I know well that have gone to St Louis CMP they have either stayed close enough to walk or used the Metro Link.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Michael Blake

Is there any data out there on what percentage of teams fly to CHAMPS versus using ground transportation?

And is it usual practice for teams that fly to also rent local vans/buses for getting around venue/hotel/restaurants?

--Michael Blake

We fly and rent a van.

Thank goodness for split champs.

Now we'll get to fly and rent a van.

-Mike

[Lil' Lavery]

A large part of the rationale FIRST laid out for the dual Championships was saving travel costs. A purely random assignment of teams between the two Championships undoes that.

For instance, there is a MASSIVE population of teams in Southeast Michigan, Ontario, Indiana, and Ohio within an easy drive of the Detroit Championship. Many of the Southeast Michigan teams could even do it as a daytrip (potentially on schoolbuses), slashing the travel costs to near zero. If 50% of these teams end up assigned to the Houston Championship, the costs savings rationale is completely out the window.

Now I realize that for a large portion of FRC, the cost of travelling doesn't really change all that much. We've seen plenty of comments reflecting that from west coast teams. Ultimately a large portion of these teams, especially those that qualify in-season, are going to want to go to the later of the two championships for logistic reasons*.

*The exception being where one championship may interfere with state or AP/IB testing preparation, prom, etc.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

A large part of the rationale FIRST laid out for the dual Championships was saving travel costs. A purely random assignment of teams between the two Championships undoes that.

For instance, there is a MASSIVE population of teams in Southeast Michigan, Ontario, Indiana, and Ohio within an easy drive of the Detroit Championship. Many of the Southeast Michigan teams could even do it as a daytrip (potentially on schoolbuses), slashing the travel costs to near zero. If 50% of these teams end up assigned to the Houston Championship, the costs savings rationale is completely out the window.

Now I realize that for a large portion of FRC, the cost of travelling doesn't really change all that much. We've seen plenty of comments reflecting that from west coast teams. Ultimately a large portion of these teams, especially those that qualify in-season, are going to want to go to the later of the two championships for logistic reasons*.

*The exception being where one championship may interfere with state or AP/IB testing preparation, prom, etc.

Really? I thought the main reason was due to CMPS being too small in the near future, enough that it had to have 2 CMPS. I highly doubt its due to a cost savings......unless you're referring to how teams are assigned to which specific split championship.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Really? I thought the main reason was due to CMPS being too small in the near future, enough that it had to have 2 CMPS. I highly doubt its due to a cost savings......unless you're referring to how teams are assigned to which specific split championship.

Yes, they openly stated as much in the initial announcement and the town hall.
http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/2017-...p-announcement

Originally Posted by Frank Bossi

In addition, by hosting Championships in multiple cities, we seek to reduce the travel distances and associated travel expenses for a significant number of our teams.

http://wiki.team1640.com/index.php?t...l_Slides-2.jpg

Originally Posted by Town Hall slide #2

Enable more teams to participate in the FIRST Championship by reducing travel distances and transportation costs for a significant number of teams

[mwmac]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Yes, they openly stated as much in the initial announcement and the town hall.
http://www.usfirst.org/aboutus/2017-...p-announcement

http://wiki.team1640.com/index.php?t...l_Slides-2.jpg

Sean, you are correct that reducing team travel costs was one of the stated objectives of the championsplit decision. So here is a proposal to help even more teams attend the championship, (which is clearly the primary goal) implement a sliding registration fee schedule that is directly related to the distance a qualifying team is from their respective championship venue...