On being rude ...

[GaryVoshol]

Please be aware that the forum moderators have been paying attention to rude posts for the last few days. As always, we monitor threads that have the potential to blow up into flame wars - fortunately they are few and far between here.

As one mod mentioned, it's not a violation of the forum rules to be insufferable (actually, he used a little stronger word).

That doesn't mean we encourage inconsiderate behavior, be it of other users, sponsors or FIRST. But we will not automatically delete posts or ban users who are rude.

Thank you to everyone for your continued good efforts to keep CD a valuable resource for teams.

And we will continue to delete all those annoying sports streaming posts that somehow get past the forum filters ... sigh.

[Foster]

Being someone that writes direct posts, and since I had one in the last 24 hours, I'm going to go on a slight rant here. I'm willing to trade 6 years and a big handfull of dots in for this.

I see CD posters in cycles.

Hi, I'm Elizabeth Jane from 8081 and as a freshman roboteer (my grandfather always uses that word) I'm excited to be on Chief Delphi.

-- I seldom comment, I sometimes put a Hi, welcome to CD oh and this is how you search to find stuff you might find interesting.

I'm Colin and our team wants to know if when we mount the lasers on the sharks, do they need to point forward.
-- I assume that they have read the rules so will put out a "Colin, when you skipped over reading rule R.3.5.6.4.2, you'll see that it says, no sharks, only groupers and the lasers must point forward. (Clearly a water game year). My response is a little strong, and pushes the edge. But, if Colin had read the rules he wouldn't be posting this.

I'm Richard and want to know if we can solder connectors. (Simple tech question)
-- Yes you can, but there are about a dozen people that will say no. Use the search function to find out why.

As I look at all these, questions, I look at the year and their position. As "long time" CD members in "Teacher/Mentor" roles, I start assuming that they have been present for discussions. I also assume that Mentors are clueful and above average intelligence.

So I assume they know how FIRST works. How events are run, how finances work, where the money goes, etc. I assume that teams in the ~1000 range and less remember Dewalt Drill motors and Fisher Price Motors and Small Parts. And they explain now that we have Andy and Mark giving up lives to ship parts and how Paul uses cattle prods to get JVN and Aren to design parts in Texas and a guy with just initials for a name on the west coast is doing drives. And while I give time to this to spread to the #4000 teams and higher that this is the Golden Age", I expect the elders to know this and spread this.

So when I post:

Originally Posted by Foster

Just a reminder, these are free items that AM is storing, cataloging, entering into the FirstChoice System, picking, packing and shipping. So it makes sense that this happens well before kickoff. And it makes sense to do it after the week one rush is done so AM can get their real jobs done.

The takeaway from this post is 1) this is again free stuff, not your birthright, not paid for by your entry fee. 2)AM is adding extra work to their busiest time of the year to help support FRC 3) You should be sending thank you notes to AM even if you get one item for doing this.

It's to pass this history on, making sure that people remember you really don't get much for your $5K. You actually get zero, it all goes to FIRST.

This is an early message in the annual cycle. You can use the search function to see that I post this reminder on a regular basis.

But yet we see this from a 8 year mentor

Originally Posted by MentorNameRedacted

1) Since when was this free? I spend $5000 to get this stuff. The kickoff kits used to be much larger, with many of the things we've seen in FIRST Choice in them for everyone. As teams grew though they couldn't get the supplies for everyone and they set up this system. Yeah it allows for some cool new stuff, but at the loss of quite a few items that we used to get, so I would never say its free.
2) Did Andymark ever say that they do this for nothing? Maybe they had and if thats the case kudos to them (ignoring the probably huge tax writeoff they can get for this). If not though, it doesnt make much economic sense for a company of Andymark's size to deal with FIRST Choice for free. I'd be surprised if there wasn't some sort of monetary support so that they at least get close to breaking even.

Sigh, so much wrong here. So I responded

Originally Posted by Foster

Hi, you must be new here. it's a well known fact that your $5,000 donation goes directly to FIRST. All of the parts, all of the totes, all of the shipping to your kick off site is donated.

Oh, that regional you "paid for". Donations make that happen.

Time for you to search in the CD archives about FIRST financials.



Andy Mark does amazing things to help roboteers. VEX does amazing things to help roboteers. While they meet bottom lines, the employees and owners put passion in front of profits. Brian Roberts, CEO of Comcast made $32.9 million last year. If all the First FRC teams bough ALL their parts from AM, the gross would be less than half of what Brian made.

People do amazing things for stuff the have a passion for.

I salute the robotics suppliers, I think they are awesome people with bad business sense. I buy as much stuff from them as I can, just to keep them (parts, same day shipping, talk to an engineer on a call, phone answered on the weekend) around for another year.

You, on the other hand, should do some research before you post and look like an idiot.

People have send me notes about this along with red dots and green dots.

Red dot's have said I should be nicer. I was, the original note was much harsher, send me a pnote to see the exact text. I'm not trying to scare new roboteers off. But this isn't RobotBook were you can post anything. It's Chief Delphi where smart roboteers post questions that other smart roboteers and mentors take time to answer.

I got green dot's and emails saying thanks. One said they'd like to see a spotlight of "do some research before you post and look like an idiot." /sigh

TL;DR (Too long, didn't read.) That. Is. A. Problem. We write posts, with details, thoughts and backgrounds. Necessary Nuances for Later. While the big transit bus running over you is an issue, the nuances are what makes your life run better.

Back to Gary's post. Sorry that I was rude, but I'm not going to stop. I'll still will be nice to people that are new, but people that know better will collect pointed remarks. (Actually people that know better never post stupid stuff to start).

Bottom line, if you are new, I'll help you. If you ask something you should know, I'll teach you. Sometimes the lesson is "Wax on / Wax off". Other times it "Ouch, that ruler really stings".

[mschwab013]

Originally Posted by Foster

I'm Colin and our team wants to know if when we mount the lasers on the sharks, do they need to point forward.
-- I assume that they have read the rules so will put out a "Colin, when you skipped over reading rule R.3.5.6.4.2, you'll see that it says, no sharks, only groupers and the lasers must point forward. (Clearly a water game year). My response is a little strong, and pushes the edge. But, if Colin had read the rules he wouldn't be posting this.

Originally Posted by Foster

Back to Gary's post. Sorry that I was rude, but I'm not going to stop. I'll still will be nice to people that are new, but people that know better will collect pointed remarks. (Actually people that know better never post stupid stuff to start).

Yes and yes. I could not agree more

[Jon Stratis]

Is anyone concerned that rude, sarcastic, or otherwise off-putting responses may drive students away from CD? I know I've had students tell me they avoid CD because "everyone is mean" after they've lurked for a bit...

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

[snip]
And we will continue to delete all those annoying sports streaming posts that somehow get past the forum filters ... sigh.

But Gary, the newest one is movie streaming posts.

Foster, I agree that older mentors on older teams generally have a long history with FIRST. Though, I may remember the Fisher-Prices, but I don't remember drill motors and Small Parts. (But heck, current team members barely recognize the name "Overdrive")

There was a satirical video by Tom Scott (on YouTube) I liked that talked about "the speed of outrage", and how the Internet makes it easy to become very passionate one way or the other very quickly. Maybe we should all relax a little on some things.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Christopher149

There was a satirical video by Tom Scott (on YouTube) I liked that talked about "the speed of outrage", and how the Internet makes it easy to become very passionate one way or the other very quickly. Maybe we should all relax a little on some things.

That is true.

One thing that I try to do--no matter how hot under the collar I'm getting--is to maintain a neutral tone, possibly a little bit "icy" if the situation actually warrants it. It's possible to convey that you're annoyed without sounding really angry--but it takes some thought and some careful word choice, which can calm you down.

That's not to say that I'm always successful.

[Chak]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Is anyone concerned that rude, sarcastic, or otherwise off-putting responses may drive students away from CD? I know I've had students tell me they avoid CD because "everyone is mean" after they've lurked for a bit...

I'm a student, and I've found CD to be helpful and relatively nice compared to the rest of the internet . It's a learning experience; If I've made a mistake, I want to know. If justified rudeness will make CD run more efficiently, I'm all for it. If people do happen to be mean, it's also a learning experience to grow a thick skin and see beyond the rudeness to understand what they're trying to convey.

Besides, what do you mean "everyone is mean"? I don't see it.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Is anyone concerned that rude, sarcastic, or otherwise off-putting responses may drive students away from CD? I know I've had students tell me they avoid CD because "everyone is mean" after they've lurked for a bit...

On the one hand, Yes, definitely.
On the other hand, No, not so much.

Welcome to Earth.

Everyone on CD is not mean. It's not even close.

Those students need to learn that they are mistaken; and need to learn how to use a resource like CD effectively and efficiently. When I get an opportunity to teach those skills, I try to use it. I'm guessing that you also do that.

Blake

[Rachel Lim]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Is anyone concerned that rude, sarcastic, or otherwise off-putting responses may drive students away from CD? I know I've had students tell me they avoid CD because "everyone is mean" after they've lurked for a bit...

I'm a student, and I've found CD to be pretty okay. But I think any comments you'll get from students on here are going to be pretty biased... My general opinion is that I know I'm not perfect, and I'd rather people tell me to my face when I've messed up than try to pretend I didn't.

For me, the intimidating thing about CD is not the tone of posters, but the fact that there are literally people here who've done FRC longer than I've been alive. For me, and I think for most of my friends, the main reason we don't post or only semi-actively post is because we just don't feel like we have that much to contribute.

I'd argue it's not the pure language of "attackers"--there are many, many places on the internet where people have no qualms about blatantly insulting you, but CD isn't once of them--but rather how personal attacks can seem. Here, members respond to you, not to some anonymous account. This can be great or terrible depending on your experience.

I try to post the same way I'd talk in person. It's not that I don't say how I feel; I just consider how I'm phrasing it. If I wouldn't say it to your face, I'm not going to post it online. There are people who are way more direct than me, and their posts reflect that. That's fine with me. Everyone is different.

I think it's just important to remember that behind the text are people.

All that said, CD can still be a scary place to start posting in. While they might be "just dots," your and your team's reputation is affected by what you say on here. When I encourage rookies (and veterans) to read/post on CD, I accompany it with a list of things to watch out for. Then I tell them to learn as they go...as I've been doing.

[Sperkowsky]

The only problem as a student posting here is I find people are really quick to throw red dots at you if they disagree. I even had someone red me for a quote because they didn't like it...

It does stop me from posting responses with the fear that it could hurt my reputation furthermore hurting my teams.

[dubiousSwain]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

The only problem as a student posting here is I find people are really quick to throw red dots at you if they disagree. I even had someone red me for a quote because they didn't like it...

It does stop me from posting responses with the fear that it could hurt my reputation furthermore hurting my teams.

I find that people are quick to ignore red dots if you post constructive things.

[Taylor]

In my experience, the Robotics Team tends to attract a ... special kind of human. Both students and mentors tend to be outliers on the social spectrum, in many ways, myself certainly included.

In some posts I have seen over the years, the authors seem to be individuals who, shall we say, lack social grace.

Whether this is by nature or nurture, I am not qualified to comment.

But it seems to me these are the ones who are most often 'attacked'.

If you as a reader feel somebody is being unnecessarily rude, it may be for different reasons. It may be because
1)the individual is, in fact, a jerk;
2)the individual is full of anonymous Internet bravado;
3)the individual is operating off faulty premise or bias;
4)the individual is very passionate about the subject;
5)the individual doesn't realize s/he is being rude and does not know any better;
6)the individual doesn't realize s/he is being rude and can't help it.

While any of these six may be true, they all should be treated differently. And as it is difficult to tell through black text on a white background, I would counsel my colleagues to not jump directly to conclusion 1).

[marshall]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

The only problem as a student posting here is I find people are really quick to throw red dots at you if they disagree. I even had someone red me for a quote because they didn't like it...

It does stop me from posting responses with the fear that it could hurt my reputation furthermore hurting my teams.

Ohh, it's true. That being said, "they're just dots". I got a few for my story about 900 last season, not because they didn't like me, nor because they had a problem with my post, but because they didn't like how far we took the whole cheesecaking business. I mean, I guess that's their prerogative but it was just silly to me.

I will say that it's not obvious how to report abusive behavior... granted, it's not a secret either (warning button on the far right of most posts). I'm still not sure how to report a user for a PM though.

[notmattlythgoe]

Originally Posted by marshall

Ohh, it's true. That being said, "they're just dots". I got a few for my story about 900 last season, not because they didn't like me, nor because they had a problem with my post, but because they didn't like how far we took the whole cheesecaking business. I mean, I guess that's their prerogative but it was just silly to me.

I will say that it's not obvious how to report abusive behavior... granted, it's not a secret either (warning button on the far right of most posts). I'm still not sure how to report a user for a PM though.

I just hope you never figure out how to report someone for bullying...

I'll admit, I'm one to give neg rep for someone getting personal or pushing the acceptable limits. Sometimes things can come off harsher than they were intended and a reminder to check what we write can be helpful. I've edited many a post after clicking Submit Reply that I realized were a bit tougher than they should be.

[Ari423]

Originally Posted by Foster

I assume that teams in the ~1000 range and less remember Dewalt Drill motors and Fisher Price Motors and Small Parts. And they explain now that we have Andy and Mark giving up lives to ship parts and how Paul uses cattle prods to get JVN and Aren to design parts in Texas and a guy with just initials for a name on the west coast is doing drives. And while I give time to this to spread to the #4000 teams and higher that this is the Golden Age", I expect the elders to know this and spread this.

While I would agree that usually someone on teams with numbers lower than 1000 would remember this stuff, we only have one mentor on the team who remembers Dewalts. Even though we have a relatively low number, most of our mentors have joined in the past few years and don't know as much about the way FIRST works now or used to work. It is important to look at how long they have been around, not how long the team has been around. That being said, I completely agree with everything else you said.