Cheating in FRC

[Dinokaiz2]

Hey, CD-

I'd like to bring attention to a post made today on r/FRC:

Hello Reddit,

It has apparently come down to this. I was trying to avoid this, but it seems unavoidable.

A little background on our team, I would consider our team a powerhouse team. Usually qualifying for championship, and for most of the past years, we have won atleast one regional win each season.

This is great and all, but our team is cheating. We do not follow the 6 weeks limit. Our mentors justify cheating with "It doesn't matter as long as the kids learn and have fun." Now, this is a good point, but the kids (especially me) would have more fun winning and winning honestly. Most of the kids/mentors on our team don't go on this reddit or CD, in fact I don't think any of them do, except me.

Additionally, the have been blatantly lieing during chairman's. Mentors do most of the chairman, and just pull some kids who don't know much to present. Now, thankfully we haven"t won it yet, but...

This is my second year on the team. I first went along with it, but after the first season, I got very interested in FRC, which led me to here and CD. Then I realized we were cheating.

When I confronted the lead mentor, he essentially ignored me and just tried to keep me as far as away from the team now. He "forgot" to email me about upcoming leadership, and I feel like I should quit right this moment.

Help and many thanks, a concerned member

(TL;DR: Someone's team is cheating by going over the 6 weeks.)

About 13 hours after this was posted, the OP commented on the thread, saying:

EDIT: Reddit, I am forced to close this thread, as a member of my team regonized the story etc.

Thank you for all the advice: how ever I don't think I have the courage to report the team.

Despite the OP deciding to refrain from reporting his/her team, I felt it my responsibility to bring this to the FIRST community. Something needs to be done about this. If anyone reading this knows or is a member of the team described, PLEASE report it. Not only is this behavior toxic to the members of the team by degrading their ethical values, it's toxic to all of FRC because of the legitimate teams that don't get to go to World Champs because of this illegitimate team. It also spits in the face of Gracious Professionalism.

To clarify: I'm not personally involved with the person whose team is cheating, I'm merely a bystander who thought it important to take action.

[fsgond]

This is bad. I am really sadden to hear that this is going on in FIRST being a 9 year veteran. I had always wondered if this happened and I am very unhappy to hear that it does.

If anyone has any information on this team, please pass it along here on CD and we will get it to the appropriate people. Even if the person does not have the courage to report it themselves, I will do it for you. PM me.

[waialua359]

If a participant feels that their own team doesnt follow the strict part of the FIRST rules, I would suggest emailing FIRST directly.
No need to air out dirty laundry here.

Every uncomfortable situation has 2 sides to a story.

Just a suggestion.

[Coach Norm]

Originally Posted by waialua359

If a participant feels that their own team doesnt follow the strict part of the FIRST rules, I would suggest emailing FIRST directly.
No need to air out dirty laundry here.

Every uncomfortable situation has 2 sides to a story.

Just a suggestion.

+1

[george.tan]

Originally Posted by Coach Norm

+1

+1 for me too!

[droswell]

In any organization this large, there's always going to be a small percentage of people who game the system. It's inevitable, and you'll find this all over the place in the real world. It's an unfortunate reality.

What's important to maintain the integrity of the organization is that the problem is identified and stopped whenever and wherever possible. This is why so many here are (rightfully) asking OP to notify HQ. Ignoring misconduct breeds more of it, and it's not long before the honor system is a joke. I expect more from a FIRST team, and I'm sure that everyone else here does as well.

If your team is doing something it shouldn't, it is your responsibility to stop it. Don't rely on mentors, administration, or anyone else. Turning a blind eye is sanctioning this behavior. FIRST is what we make it.

[aldaeron]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Every uncomfortable situation has 2 sides to a story.

I saw this post on Reddit too and remember there being a great comment about perceived cheating that was not actually cheating (since the Reddit OP was a first year). The Reddit reply had mentioned things like working on a practice bot, working on code or working on a mechanism within the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. To a new member these may appear to be "cheating" though are allowed by last year's rules. I did not see any replies and the thread is now deleted.

Over the years I have heard a number of things called "cheating" by students, parents and spectators who did not understand the rules well enough (let's face it, sometimes I feel like a lawyer reading all the Q&A and rules updates all the time).

-matto-

[XaulZan11]

For those suggesting the student should report to issue directly to FIRST, what do you think FIRST will do with that information?

I'm not sure FIRST is capable of launching investigations or have the desire to take away previous awards or removing 'guilty' mentors/students for every report of cheating. (The 2012 championship was very different than this). I like John's suggestion of reaching out privately to respective members of the community.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by aldaeron

I saw this post on Reddit too and remember there being a great comment about perceived cheating that was not actually cheating (since the Reddit OP was a first year). The Reddit reply had mentioned things like working on a practice bot, working on code or working on a mechanism within the WITHHOLDING ALLOWANCE. To a new member these may appear to be "cheating" though are allowed by last year's rules.

In the reddit post he mentions that his head mentor countered the accusations of cheating by saying "as long as the kids are inspired and having fun", leading me to think that the head mentors knows it to be cheating. But you are right, we definitely don't know for sure.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by waialua359

Every uncomfortable situation has 2 sides to a story.

There are ways to cheat, and there are ways to cheat.

Not bagging on stop build day is a clear violation. Bagging the robot, and continuing to work on a component within the hold back limitation is fine. Kids who do not understand that rule sometimes think the team is cheating. We build a 2nd robot for that explicit purpose. Continuing to refine the design after stop build, and bring the new component (within the hold back allowance) to the competition.

In the grand scheme of things, for a well performing team, there is limited value of not bagging on time vs. continuing to work on the hold back. For a rookie team that doesn't even have a functioning robot, the cheating could be huge. For the rookie team, I can see "looking the other way" so that they can compete. Rookie teams tend not to do very well, so the giving them a handicap advantage is not so bad.

Then there is cheating. The competition is for the students to learn. A mentor built robot, while not technically "cheating", takes away from the experience for the kids. The mentors need to remember "gracious professionalism", and take a step back for the benefit of the students.

[abigailthefox]

Originally Posted by rich2202

There are ways to cheat, and there are ways to cheat.

I would wonder how blatant the violation is here.
Is the robot clearly out of the bag and being worked on/driven?
Was there a "strategic" hole in the bag to fix something broken?
Leaving more than the allowed weight out of bag?
We can't say for sure.

Most Chairman's submissions try to word things favorably, which I don't see as problematic.
Outright lying about outreach? I would say that's highly problematic.

But perhaps most troubling is the fact that this student felt so afraid to come out with this information.
This suggests, to me, an environment that isn't conducive to what FIRST is all about.
As does the fact that they pulled down the post immediately when another student (?) recognized it.
Clearly, whether or not the cheating is blatant, the environment and atmosphere of that team should be closely examined, by someone not involved in it.

Finally, I think that posting to CD was an appropriate response.
It was posted on Reddit looking for guidance, and removed because someone felt threatened, not because the issue was resolved.
CD is full of experienced FIRST students and mentors, and bringing it here is simply a way to bring it to light, allow it to be discussed by people who are familiar with the climate and goals of FIRST, and hopefully to allow it to reach the OP, or team members of the OP.

I highly advise the OP (if you're reading this) to take advantage of mentors who have offered you one on one assistance, talk to them, get some advice, and (hopefully) report this to FIRST.
FIRST should not be a place where an atmosphere of cheating is cultivated.

(OP, know that we're all here to support you--FRC should be fun, not threatening or uncomfortable. And if you resolve the issue, and (potentially) need help finding another team nearby, feel free to reach out, we will all do our best to help you achieve future success in FIRST!!)

[IronicDeadBird]

I'm concerned about why the post was taken down, if it was sorted out that is one thing, the alternatives are a bit darker. I really hope the OP steps forward and at least confirms they are alright with a few people and lets it diffuse a bit.

[gblake]

If this is real, the original person should contact FIRST.

Regardless, I recommend everyone else avoid the urge to become ersatz guardian angels, or internet vigilantes.

If this is real, if someone actually involved contacts FIRST, that will be enough to get it resolved.

If it turns out that I'm wrong, that will be a new conversation.

Correct?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by gblake

If this is real, the original person should contact FIRST.

Regardless, I recommend everyone else avoid the urge to become ersatz guardian angels, or internet vigilantes.

If this is real, if someone actually involved contacts FIRST, that will be enough to get it resolved.

If it turns out that I'm wrong, that will be a new conversation.

Correct?

Sure, contacting FIRST might be what we would all want... But for someone afraid of blowback within their team and/ or school, it may not appear like an attractive choice. Receiving individual, directed mentoring and advice on the issue, being able to go back and forth with thoughts and talk about the issue is an improvement over the current situation, and could lead to better resolutions. In this case, I think we need to look at what's best for the student involved.

[gblake]

My advice is focused 100% on the student.

FIRST, once made aware of any allegations, by an anonymous report, by a reporter who asks to have their name kept secret, or by a reporter who wishes to be named; can discreetly investigate, and can use their influence to attempt to improve anything that needs to be improved.

If the people in FIRST (who I know care about students beyond just STEM inspiration) perceive a need to ask local administrators (or any other members of the local community) to keep an eye on things, I trust that they will discreetly do it.

On the other hand, we here can form rabbles, can reach ill-informed conclusions, can go off half-cocked, etc.

This sort of thing needs to be handled by people able to get to the truth of the matter, and able to be (physically) present for the long haul.

If that original report it's true, contact FIRST, and perhaps someone in the local administration/community. From them you can get improvements. From the Internet, you often get something else.