Outer works and such.

[Glacier]

It's nearing the end of day two of this year's 45 day build season and I wanted to get my ideas out there, so here ya go!!

I was sitting at home late last night, well after the kickoff was over and the epic reveal of this year's game, Stronghold, and its rules, regulations and game manuals...etc.

Then I started to think...Because of the craziness of the "outer works", I'd say this year will be pretty fun.
The configurations include eight traps that have over 10,000 possible alignments and placements.

It's a cool thing though....these traps...they have 2 hit points....and in order for you to take a "trap" or defense down you must cross over it going the same direction (I'm pretty sure it's the same direction, correct me if I'm wrong.) So, a total of eight defenses, that leaves you with 16 hit points total. Each hitpoint to my knowledge equals 5 total points. Making it possible to gain 40 of those points because you honestly can only take down the opposing alliance's defenses.

I'm working on rough estimations of scenarios that will most likely happen and the point possibilities as well as some robot design advice.

Till next time......

[ASD20]

Don't forget the low bar. You can score a max of 50 defense points, not including auto.

[Ichlieberoboter]

The rules state that an "undamaged" defense is worth 5 points when you cross it, so does that mean you can only get 5 points per defense since if you crossed it a second time it would be weakened, therefore damaged? Or can you get 10 per defense? I wasn't quite clear on that. (Sorry if this derails the thread at all)

[jds2001]

Originally Posted by ASD20

Don't forget the low bar. You can score a max of 50 defense points, not including auto.

Don't forget rule G45.

Originally Posted by Game Rule G45

A ROBOT may not pass completely over the Low Bar.
Violation: FOUL and YELLOW CARD

Given that constraint, I don't think that you can score 50 points since going UNDER it is impractical. (it's only like 18" tall - if you have a REALLY short robot it might work, but I've never seen any FRC robot that small)

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Ichlieberoboter

The rules state that an "undamaged" defense is worth 5 points when you cross it, so does that mean you can only get 5 points per defense since if you crossed it a second time it would be weakened, therefore damaged? Or can you get 10 per defense? I wasn't quite clear on that. (Sorry if this derails the thread at all)

It isn't Damaged until there is no light. It takes two crossings to turn off all the lights.

[Purpose]

Originally Posted by jds2001

Don't forget rule G45.



Given that constraint, I don't think that you can score 50 points since going UNDER it is impractical. (it's only like 18" tall - if you have a REALLY short robot it might work, but I've never seen any FRC robot that small)

I wouldn't be so fast to say that. Many teams are building for this particular obstacle in mind.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by jds2001

Don't forget rule G45.



Given that constraint, I don't think that you can score 50 points since going UNDER it is impractical. (it's only like 18" tall - if you have a REALLY short robot it might work, but I've never seen any FRC robot that small)

The low bar is 16" and building a robot that can fit under it is not impossible, it's just part of the challenge of the game.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by ASD20

The low bar is 16" and building a robot that can fit under it is not impossible, it's just part of the challenge of the game.

16", phsaw. Get some old-timers in here to tell about the 14" bar, as well as the two previous bars...

The 14" bar was '03, and a large number of robots tackled it. A fair number lost their rotating light covers to bar impacts... but very few got anywhere near stuck.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by EricH

16", phsaw. Get some old-timers in here to tell about the 14" bar, as well as the two previous bars...

The 14" bar was '03, and a large number of robots tackled it. A fair number lost their rotating light covers to bar impacts... but very few got anywhere near stuck.

Yup, low bar isn't anywhere near impossible. Heck, 'Snow Problem is building with the explicit goal of shooting in the high goal of the tower and crossing under the low bar, using the kit chassis. It isn't the easiest set of constraints to build around, but it's nowhere near inpossible, especially if you ignore scaling the tower.

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

Originally Posted by jds2001

Don't forget rule G45.



Given that constraint, I don't think that you can score 50 points since going UNDER it is impractical. (it's only like 18" tall - if you have a REALLY short robot it might work, but I've never seen any FRC robot that small)

my first thoughts... but im trying to make to work now

[Munchskull]

Originally Posted by jds2001

Given that constraint, I don't think that you can score 50 points since going UNDER it is impractical. (it's only like 18" tall - if you have a REALLY short robot it might work, but I've never seen any FRC robot that small)

When that is the winning strategy we will talk.

But in all seriousness, the low bar is going to be the gold standard for shooters. It is without a doubt that I say that the best robots will be shooter that take on at the very least the type B and D defenses, and the low bar. The low bar is the easiest way through to the courtyard, fast and reliable.

[cglrcng]

Truncated; ".....and in order for you to take a "trap" or defense down you must cross over it going the same direction (I'm pretty sure it's the same direction, correct me if I'm wrong.) "
____________________________
Please point out any specific rule or section of the rules that state a defense crossing (in/of the Outer Works), is a one directional item to score please (and I don't mean the Boulder Rules), I mean the Defense rules as it relates to scoring concerning Damaging the Defense items in The Outer Works & a or any specific direction you must travel across it. (I have yet to see one and have a lot of questions concerning them in both Auto and Teleop).

For a boulder to score, I agree that a rule does exist that it (a boulder), must originate or reach the Neutral Zone (must begin completely in the neutral zone), then cross the Outer Works properly (there are limitations), then be scored high or low in the tower goals. But, Boulder Rules are not Outer Works/Defense Item Scoring Rules. (What about those boulders that are stuck in the Secret Passage and never actually make it to the neutral zone? It cannot originate there, and I currently don't believe they are dead boulders from that point forward).

Can you receive a boulder directly into your bot from the HP behind the Castle Wall, drive to the neutral zone, then across the Outer Works, shoot & score? Of course you can or a vertical drop re-entry or re-introduction method concerning boulders back to field from the Castle wouldn't even be there).

The only place any of us have seen what "appears to be a robot in action" or proposed gameplay concerning the 2016 FIRST FRC Game STRONGHOLD yet, was in a very simple short production animation introduction of "The 2016 GAME"....and the robots only crossed The Outer Works going one direction, but words used say crossing the Defense items in The Outer Works, never mentioning any required directional order of crossing (though Boulder rules do). Don't ever take the animation as an end all....Leave that to the actual Game Rules!

But, if you can point to a rule concerning "one way direction"...Please point it out.

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

Originally Posted by cglrcng

Truncated; ".....and in order for you to take a "trap" or defense down you must cross over it going the same direction (I'm pretty sure it's the same direction, correct me if I'm wrong.) "
____________________________
Please point out any specific rule or section of the rules that state a defense crossing (in/of the Outer Works), is a one directional item to score please (and I don't mean the Boulder Rules), I mean the Defense rules as it relates to scoring concerning Damaging the Defense items in The Outer Works & a or any specific direction you must travel across it. (I have yet to see one and have a lot of questions concerning them in both Auto and Teleop).

For a boulder to score, I agree that a rule does exist that it (a boulder), must originate or reach the Neutral Zone (must begin completely in the neutral zone), then cross the Outer Works properly (there are limitations), then be scored high or low in the tower goals. But, Boulder Rules are not Outer Works/Defense Item Scoring Rules. (What about those boulders that are stuck in the Secret Passage and never actually make it to the neutral zone? It cannot originate there, and I currently don't believe they are dead boulders from that point forward).

Can you receive a boulder directly into your bot from the HP behind the Castle Wall, drive to the neutral zone, then across the Outer Works, shoot & score? Of course you can or a vertical drop re-entry or re-introduction method concerning boulders back to field from the Castle wouldn't even be there).

The only place any of us have seen what "appears to be a robot in action" or proposed gameplay concerning the 2016 FIRST FRC Game STRONGHOLD yet, was in a very simple short production animation introduction of "The 2016 GAME"....and the robots only crossed The Outer Works going one direction, but words used say crossing the Defense items in The Outer Works, never mentioning any required directional order of crossing (though Boulder rules do). Don't ever take the animation as an end all....Leave that to the actual Game Rules!

But, if you can point to a rule concerning "one way direction"...Please point it out.

In the glossary :
CROSS
an act performed by a ROBOT, such that it starts free of contact with an opponent DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE, traverses the DEFENSE such that its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and ends up fully contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD

going over the defenses the other way around is legal, but DOES NOT give any points or damage the obstacles

[cglrcng]

Ooooop's, so sorry. Don't know how I missed that on 2 passes (PDF version instead of the printed page stinks)....There is a ruleset concerning the travel direction of Crossing a Defense.

3.1.3

A DEFENSE is CROSSED by a ROBOT when that ROBOT
■ starts free of contact with the DEFENSE and completely in the NEUTRAL ZONE
■ traverses the DEFENSE such that its BUMPERS go fully between the adjacent SHIELDS/GUARDRAIL, and
■ ends up fully contained by the opponent’s COURTYARD.

ROBOTS can also receive AUTO points for REACHING a DEFENSE. A DEFENSE is REACHED when, at the end of the AUTO period, any part of a ROBOT’s BUMPERS are within the opponent’s OUTER WORKS. Once a ROBOT CROSSES a DEFENSE in AUTO, any additional DEFENSES that ROBOT REACHES or CROSSES during the AUTO period will not decrease DEFENSE STRENGTH nor contribute points to the ALLIANCE. If it is unclear whether a ROBOT has satisfied the requirements for CROSSING or REACHING a DEFENSE, the REFEREES are instructed to not award credit. As such, DRIVE TEAMS should make it very clear that their ROBOT has met the criteria for CROSSING or REACHING a DEFENSE.

[Glacier]

Originally Posted by EricH

It isn't Damaged until there is no light. It takes two crossings to turn off all the lights.

I will probably be restating what others have said on this issue. In this post I looked at some hard game rules to come to my conclusions. My point for this post was to initialize some maximum point thought processes. I, myself have currently been brainstorming ideas on the most efficient ways to score and I am thankful for your comment!