High Goal Vs. Low Goal

[Gamma +]

Initially, our team reached the general consensus that scoring boulders in the high goals is advantageous. However, I don't see that much advantage aside from in auto. Is seems to me that it would be better to opt out of the 3 extra points per shot and increase cycle time than spend a lot of time and energy developing a high goal shooter that requires more time to line up shot (even with vision processing) and is even more susceptible/sensitive to defense. Thoughts?

[MaGiC_PiKaChU]

shooting high goal can be hard, and low goal is a safe play. Having a mechanism that can shoot both high and low could be a good compromise if you're up to the challenge!

[Chak]

I believe that at the highest levels of play, shooting in the high goal is necessary. The breaching points are limited for the powerhouse teams that can consistently and quickly take down all the defenses. Also, an accurate high goal shot from farther away would make for a faster cycle time than rolling up to the batter and scoring in the low goal. High goal shots will be where games are won or lost, imo.
So, if your team's goal is to build a robot that wins regional, I think scoring in the low goal is not the way to go. Unlike 2014, you can't park in front of the low goal and score quickly and almost certainly by feeding from the human player's caught truss shot.
However, if your team's goal is to build a robot that works, and you're not confident your team can make a good high goal shooter, it would make sense for your team to go for the low goal.
In addition, if your team's goal is to challenge yourselves/the students, then of course your team should go for the high goal whether or not that would be wise in terms of winning the competition.
It all depends on your team's goals. What do you want to do?

[abigailthefox]

Originally Posted by Chak

I believe that at the highest levels of play, shooting in the high goal is necessary.

Always a good idea to keep in mind that the game WILL evolve to high levels of play...so that while a low goal seems quick and easy now, ultimately, reliable high goal scoring will likely become a major force later on. However, if you don't have the time/resources to put into a reliable high goal mechanism, a quick low goal scorer won't win anything alone, but it's better than nothing.

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by abigailthefox

Always a good idea to keep in mind that the game WILL evolve to high levels of play...so that while a low goal seems quick and easy now, ultimately, reliable high goal scoring will likely become a major force later on. However, if you don't have the time/resources to put into a reliable high goal mechanism, a quick low goal scorer won't win anything alone, but it's better than nothing.

It is a WHOLE LOT better than nothing....

low goal shots damage the tower with exactly the same effect as a high goal shot. Any robot that can put in 2-3 low goals will really help an alliance gain the tower QP A quick low goal scorer that can hang....
VERY VALUABLE robot....

Even with unlimited resources.... low goal scoring is a perfectly viable option... especially if you factor in time... I will gladly put a low goal scorer than can do 8 goals in a match on my alliance.....

This is a game of alliances... The GDC has made some really good choices here regarding how points can be scored... they have done their homework.
As we look at the game, more and more things pop up...

A High Goal Scorer that only does that will not win games.... they have to have help.... You cannot put in enough boulders by one robot to control the game. The other tasks are necessary too....for both quals and elims.

Nice work GDC.... we have real alliances again.... with the necessity to work together to win.... game plans in this game are much more complex than anything I have ever seen before.

Time is the enemy..... finding ways for alliances to work together can substantially reduce times it will take to accomplish game objectives thus yielding more total game points.

This game will be a well orchestrated ballet by the time we get to St. Louis.

Not just a bludgeoning....

[NicholasPherson]

It comes down to a preference,whether you know speed or accuracy.I feel as though fast pushing robot is just as effective as an accurate high goal robot.Plus anyone can push a boulder using the front of their robot whereas only the team who making shooters can make high goals and those bots may be seen as more valuable during alliance selection.

[Sperkowsky]

Well don't forget a low goal bot does not have to be a pushing bot. We are primarily designing a low goal, breaching, and climbing bot with active intakes it will also have pitch control so there is a good chance we can make high goals.

[martin417]

In my opinion, a good high goal shooter could score more quickly than a low goal scorer. Why? There is a center high goal, so the shot could be made as soon as the robot clears the defense, whereas to score a low goal, the robot must maneuver around to the side of the tower and approach pretty close to the tower to score.

[rich2202]

A low goal is 2 points. A high goal is 5 points. So, you would have to score 2.5 low goals for every high goal.

A high goal can be shot immediately upon crossing the defense. A low goal requires driving all the way to the castle. So, for an accurate shooter, there is not much time difference (time to line up the shot vs time to drive up to the castle).

Note: This presumes that the Alliance can cross enough times (minimum of 8) to "Breach". Assuming that each bot crosses during Autonomous, that means each bot must complete at least 2 cycles during teleop to Breach. That does not sound too hard, so the Crossing points should not be a factor in the decision of high vs low goal.

[Sunshine]

As I see it, this years game is all about fast cycle time while weakening the defenses and while weakening the tower. If your team can accomplish this with low goals you will be valuable to your alliance at regionals. The elites will have fast cycle times shooting high goal at championship.

I believe it's all about maximizing your points and capturing the tower is critical while totally weakening the defenses. The real elites will successfully scale the majority of the time.

Strategy comes into play when you miss a goal. Do you lose cycle time trying to score a second time or repeat cycle to weaken defense? That's where having the ability to quickly score in low goal comes into play. Great robots will be able to score high and low fast.

[ajhbrown]

Originally Posted by martin417

In my opinion, a good high goal shooter could score more quickly than a low goal scorer. Why? There is a center high goal, so the shot could be made as soon as the robot clears the defense, whereas to score a low goal, the robot must maneuver around to the side of the tower and approach pretty close to the tower to score.

This is partly true. You will remember that if you want to breach the field, you are going to have to go through different defenses in different areas causing you to move to a shooting position anyways. Shooting a high goal will score you more points, but on the same token, low goals may have a lower percentage of missing. Calculating the accuracy in the high and low goals is key in deciding this. It may take a lot of practice until you fully decide in which goal you decide to shoot for.

[rich2202]

When you still need to damage defenses, minimizing cycle time is important, so shooting low goal minimizes the variance (if you miss the high goal, your cycle time goes way up).

That said, there are only 2 low goals, so if they are occupied, then to take a shot instead of waiting around.

Once you have breached the defenses, a high goal is worth 2.5 times a low goal. If you can make 50% of your shots, it makes sense to shoot high to maximize the average number of points for a given amount of time. If your cycle time goes up by 30% (to account for missed shots), that is still a net benefit for 2.5 times more points.

[Carlson V]

Originally Posted by rich2202

When you still need to damage defenses, minimizing cycle time is important, so shooting low goal minimizes the variance (if you miss the high goal, your cycle time goes way up).

That said, there are only 2 low goals, so if they are occupied, then to take a shot instead of waiting around.

Once you have breached the defenses, a high goal is worth 2.5 times a low goal. If you can make 50% of your shots, it makes sense to shoot high to maximize the average number of points for a given amount of time. If your cycle time goes up by 30% (to account for missed shots), that is still a net benefit for 2.5 times more points.

You have a good point about the cycle time, but something to take into account is the levels taken of the tower. Whether it's high or low you get a level taken off. which counts for something if you only make half of your goals in the high, or all of them in the low.

[MrJohnston]

This is quite the discussion... Really, it's all going to come down to
1) What your team is capable of doing?
2) For what strategy are you optimizing your robot?

High Goal Advantages:
* With three available goals, it is possible to score from anywhere in the courtyard.
* Each shot is worth more than double the points (not including capturing the tower).

Low Goal Advantages:
* It is more likely that you can use your acquiring mechanism to make the shot - instead of needing an additional manipulator.
* A driver can basically drive up and put the boulder in the goals for easy high accuracy


A team capable of hitting long distance shots into the high goals 50% of the time is better off shooting into the high goal if the plan is to cycle and other the flow of the match allows for a constant cycle of boulders.... However, in a slower paced game (especially if your allies and opponents both struggle with making shots) as, in order to create a capture, a robot will not be able to afford to miss and it might make sense to focus on the low goal... In higher level games, it is almost certain that boulders will almost exclusively be aimed at the high goal...

For design plans, if you are planning to make scoring boulders a primary of your robot's role in the game, high goal scoring seems like a must so long as your team is able to make an effective high goal shooter - most likely this would have to include strong vision tracking and a consistent shooter that has enough pop to hit the mark from several locations on in the courtyard.... A team not able to create an accurate high-goal shooter would be far better off putting boulders in the low goal.

[JoshWilson]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Well don't forget a low goal bot does not have to be a pushing bot. We are primarily designing a low goal, breaching, and climbing bot with active intakes it will also have pitch control so there is a good chance we can make high goals.

Actually, it kinda does, because shooting the ball in will cause it to bounce back out most of the time. The goal is also smaller, and harder to hit, so the times you do hit into it, you need to make sure you didn't put to much force into your shot so it doesn't hit the ball director thing inside the tower, and bounce back out.