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View Poll Results: What should be permitted as "COTS"? You may mark as many as you like.
Pre-cut metal with no moving parts, such as sprockets 155 76.73%
Simple moving parts - such as bearings. 157 77.72%
More complex moving pieces - such as gearboxes 159 78.71%
Motorized components - such as the Dart Actuator 134 66.34%
Basic Drive Train Kit - KOP Chassis 152 75.25%
More Complex Drive Train Kits, such as the Rhino Drive. 101 50.00%
Working Manipulators, such as AndyMark's Intake 59 29.21%
Full Competitive Robot 34 16.83%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 26-01-2016, 16:18
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

Getting side tracked........

I'm sure I'll get blasted for this BUT....... if you are constantly in the bottom 5% you are either doing something terribly wrong or you are in the wrong competition or both. Seek help. There are a lot of great teams willing to show their support. There are also other competitions out there whose focus and model may be more in line with your goals.

Make it easier? Heck, I bet there are others like me who would like it a little harder. I'm tired of living in a PC society where we dumb down things for little Johnnie so he can feel good about himself. Here's a little surprise. Little Johnnie is smarter than you think and eventually figures out that you lowered the bar on his behalf. It doesn't make him feel better about himself.

The moment an organization like FIRST tries being everything for everyone they loose their original focus and end up pleasing no one.

Just a thought. I bet the bottom 15% at competitions are the same 15% voting for the purchase of complete robots on the poll. Not sure how to interpret that. Want a quick and easy fix to a complex problem?

Boy, I can't wait till we start talking about two championships again...... Lol
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Unread 26-01-2016, 21:07
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

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Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber View Post
<snip> COTS and Dog Shifters living together...
Nice!
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Unread 26-01-2016, 16:20
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PayneTrain misquoted by TechHelpBB View Post
-Students should design the robot and force the mentors to build buy it COTS
Let me make a little adjustment here.
There looks more like the marketing material .

I mean most of you students are broke anyway so .
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Unread 26-01-2016, 15:59
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

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Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur View Post
Yes, I have been on teams that did poorly consistently.
Success on the field =/= inspiration.

I will agree that winning CAN inspire, but so can learning from those that beat you.
I agree. The last two years my team has done pretty horribly, and while I've definitely been demotivated at times the overall effect has been to inspire us to do our absolute best this year. I'd rather pour my heart out and lose than only partially try and win.
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Unread 26-01-2016, 11:05
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

Suppose my team shows up at a competition. Suppose we unbag a robot that's nothing but kit parts. Maybe even that WCP MCC.

Suppose we then proceed to win the regional.*

Would the reaction be:

(a) "Hey, that's not fair! You used a COTS robot!"
(b) "Wow, that's amazing, you did all that with a COTS robot!"

*And if your reaction to this statement is "pfffff, yeah right" - then what's the problem??

Last edited by GreyingJay : 26-01-2016 at 11:14.
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Unread 26-01-2016, 11:12
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

Ironically I am voting that all COTS parts should be available.

Why?

I think FIRST FRC needs to question what it is and what it aspires to be occasionally as a health check.

I vote we open Pandora's box because the adults and businesses are too clever and basically have already done so.

The issue of whether we value custom fabrication and all that goes into it, and how, should be separate from simply hurting the most disadvantaged from showing up with something.

I can see someone wealthy buying themselves a victory like this. I also see that when that happens it's time for a new health check.

I do place one restriction on this. Under no circumstances should any COTS robot part vendor be allowed to know each game before kickoff. Sorry Andy - if you are involved in field logistics that might be an issue for you. This will hopefully keep the status quo for a bit longer.

Last edited by techhelpbb : 26-01-2016 at 11:17.
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Unread 26-01-2016, 11:31
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

I do not see what the big fuss is about. There is nothing revolutionary in the kits, with the exception of the WCP MCC (which I will come back to in a minute). Previously, people would look at old video of what was successful on CD or photos from previous regionals. Let's use the case of a roller intake for a spherical game piece. There are only so many ways to pickup a sphere off the ground using the actuators allowed in FRC. A "shaft full of wheels" or "tube with grippy material" on a rotary joint is a lightweight way to grab a compressible sphere without needing precise alignment (remember you are driving from 50 feet away). In the past, someone would ask for help or details of how teams did it the last time we had a compressible spherical game piece. Soon there would be robot photos, mostly on CD, and people could quickly figure out what parts were needed to build the design and order and assemble them. Now there is a convenient kit you can order with less clicks. The end result is the same, roller intake using the same principle as years past, with the exception that some teams who are less good at searching these forums are now aware of the kit and can buy it COTS. It is also important to note that just because you buy the kit, does not mean you have to use all the pieces or make it exactly as the photo shows it. You may choose change the arm dimensions, motor used, gearing or wheel size after testing.

Same thing goes for gearboxes. You are designing a set of spur gear reductions and maybe adding a chain sprocket reduction at the end. Spur gears need to have their centers positioned within a few thousands of an inch of each other. If you don't have a precise way to get the gears mounted correctly they will destroy each other. There is a still a ton of physics and design tradeoffs with COTS gearboxes (1 vs 2 speed, 2 vs 3 CIMs, Gearing ratios optimized for time to distance, pushing max current at traction limit, etc)

We could keep going into all the COTS parts, but the end result is the principles are the same and vendors are making the execution easier and easier. The seven simple machines have not changed, their execution for FRC has just become easier (assuming you can afford to buy them).

On the note of the MCC, it is tempting to say that this will "break FRC" because you can purchase a robot. Let's be clear you are only purchasing the mechanical components, not the software, ability to drive or game strategy. You could give identical robots (with identical software) to teams and it would still be a ton of fun to watch. Remember that just because the MCC or KOP kit does something one way, does not require you to do it the same way. Maybe you change wheels or gearing ratio or the size of your roller intake wheels. Keep in mind that with publicly released designs (MCC, Ri3d), that everyone else sees them and is looking to design something at least as good as those designs, if not better. You can also design defensive strategies that counter these publicly available designs.

Personally I would like to see 20 MCC designs ready to go at the competition with working software and instructions on how to use them so that teams who tried their best and for whatever reason were not able to make a bot that can score points would get to participate in the C part of FRC (competition).

I am going to link to an old reply of mine on essentially the same topic since many of the points are valid. It also shows how many times this discussion has come up (though it is good to revisit it once a year).


Final note - as a team that used to have access to CNC machines, it was nice to be able to get into the details of fabrication with students and make custom gearboxes (even if COTS was cheaper and lighter). Now that we do not have access to these tools, we focus our attention from fabrication theory (i.e. climb vs conventional milling, surface speeds that give good finish, how to cut various materials and how to efficiently program different milling operations with the fewest setup) to constrained design theory (we want to make motions like X,Y,Z that fit in area A and we can chose from Q set of parts that we can afford from vendors 1,2,3)

-matto-
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Unread 26-01-2016, 11:14
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

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Originally Posted by MrJohnston View Post
I don't think you are correct here... From their advertisement (follow the link), in bright red letters:

*Kits will be available for purchase, please email support@wcproducts.net for more info*
Andrew seems to be echoing how R.C. responded to these concerns in the original thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.C. View Post
Sorry need to put more info, most if not all of the robot is COTS components sold through VEXpro or WCP. There are a few pieces we had to custom make and have had customers ask us if we'd have those parts available. We are hoping to make specific parts available that teams can't easily produce.

Quote:
Originally Posted by R.C. View Post
Ty,

Yeah we don't want to sell pre boxed g2g solutions. We've been getting a ton of customer calls and emails about how to integrate the PTO and how to do various other tasks in this game. We thought it would help teams if we were able to put something together.
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Unread 26-01-2016, 11:46
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

Simple moving parts - such as bearings. Seriously?

This conversation is drawing a lot of heated attention.
I see it as teams learning between design engineering and systems engineering and that's great.
I see more functional robots than I have in years. Bring on more components, limit the complete assemblies.
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Unread 26-01-2016, 12:06
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

What if a weaker team wants to design their own bot? If other teams are using COTS parts, it forces everyone to be at that level or better (if they want any chance at all).
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Unread 26-01-2016, 12:15
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mentos54 View Post
What if a weaker team wants to design their own bot? If other teams are using COTS parts, it forces everyone to be at that level or better (if they want any chance at all).
What's wrong with raising the floor?
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Unread 26-01-2016, 12:32
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

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Originally Posted by mentos54 View Post
What if a weaker team wants to design their own bot? If other teams are using COTS parts, it forces everyone to be at that level or better (if they want any chance at all).
You didn't finish your sentence. I think you intended to write " ... design their own bot, and beat the other bots on-the-field."

Why are these hypothetical students building this hypothetical robot? To win a regional, or for some other reason(s)? Or for all of the above?

If the answer is "all of the above", they might be trying to fit 10 pounds of stuff into the 2017 version of FIRST's 9 pound bag.
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Unread 26-01-2016, 12:54
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

My answer to this is the same as my answer in the other thread:

COTS parts can make it easier to get the initial bit of success, so that you desire to overcome challenges rather than just give up.
COTS parts do not necessarily remove the drive to do better, or to learn more so you can improve the pre-existing solutions.


Those two points can be achieved with custom parts. They can also be achieved with COTS parts.

I believe COTS parts make success, and therefore inspiration, accessible to more teams.

As long as COTS parts continue to fulfill those two points, I'm fine with them.
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Unread 26-01-2016, 13:53
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

There seems to be a lot of talk about these pre-made assemblies helping lower resource teems be competitive, but it depends on who you're talking about. My brother was part of a team who had to survive on $200 a year, not nearly enough for any of these competitive COTS options. COTS parts only helps those who can afford them, and if teams have to spend $1000 to have a competitive drivetrain they are going to have to neglect putting money into resources that will help them in the long run.

Additionally, even if teams can afford these options does it actually help to inspire students? I know I at least do not enjoy building something that someone else came up with as much as something I designed myself. If the goal of FIRST is to get students engaged and inspired in building robots, why not let us design a robot? Even if it fails I can have pride in what I have accomplished.

This is not to say all COTS products are bad. The highest precision tools in my shop are a miter saw and a Drill Press (which I'm no longer sure is true). Having COTS gearboxes and parts whose precision I can trust are necessities in order for us to have a fully functioning robot. My argument is solely to say that I would rather have cheaper COTS parts that give me more design choices than larger, pre-made assemblies that only represent one good option.
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Unread 26-01-2016, 13:35
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Re: COTS: How far should it go?

Personally, I voted only for item #1. I've always insisted on the following:
  • students must design and construct their own bearings, and
  • students must use only stone tools which they make from scratch.

Edit: no I don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mentos54 View Post
What if a weaker team wants to design their own bot? If other teams are using COTS parts, it forces everyone to be at that level or better (if they want any chance at all).
Oh NO! It means everyone has to try to get... better. Sorry for the snark, but if the goal is for teams to build things with no assistance or expertise, and out of hardware store supplies like string and pvc pipe, I recommend BEST robotics. It's also free to enter. My kids do it in the fall.
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