Are these bumpers legal? (Another bumper thread)

[Ginger Power]

This particular question has been debated by multiple LRI's and I've heard different opinions. Are these bumpers legal:
Imgur Link

If you look at R28:

Team numbers must be displayed and positioned on the BUMPERS such that an observer walking
around the perimeter of the ROBOT can unambiguously tell the Team’s number from any point of
view and meet the following additional criteria:

A. consist of numerals at least 4 in. high, at least ½ in. in stroke width, and be either white in
color or outlined in white

B. must not wrap around sharp corners (less than 160 degrees) of the FRAME PERIMETER

The key word is "numerals" in bullet point A. If you look at the dictionary definition: Merriam-Webster
Dictionary.com
Oxford Dictionary

The logo is clearly a numeral by the dictionary definition, and it conveys the number 4607 unambiguously. So we don't have a problem right? By the letter of the law we should be legal, and I would love to hear the opinion of Big Al.

Edit: Changed massive picture to imgur link.

[Ty Tremblay]

Here's an Imgur link for those of us that don't have a bajillion pixels.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Ty Tremblay

Here's an Imgur link for those of us that don't have a bajillion pixels.

Thanks Ty! Uploading from my phone.

[MrForbes]

Do you want to have hassles at robot inspection? if so, leave them as they are, they look neat. If you just want to breeze through inspection, fix the numbers.

[Chief Hedgehog]

Questions, no hassles. The LRIs are really good where we are in MN. But they were concerned.

[D_Price]

I like the stylish look with the 0 and team name

[MrForbes]

If you leave them as they are, bring some corndogs for the RIs.

[GaryVoshol]

I'm sorry but at first glance I did not unambiguously see that as a zero. I thought your number was 467.

If I can't tell, can the scouters from other teams tell? "Hey, I never saw 4607 play today, so I don't have any data on them. Did they not show up?"

[Bob Steele]

Originally Posted by GaryVoshol

I'm sorry but at first glance I did not unambiguously see that as a zero. I thought your number was 467.

If I can't tell, can the scouters from other teams tell? "Hey, I never saw 4607 play today, so I don't have any data on them. Did they not show up?"

I have to say that I agree with Gary.... initially thought you were 467

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Ginger Power

The logo is clearly a numeral by the dictionary definition, ...

(emphasis mine)

I'm sorry but I agree with Gary. If I were your robot inspector, I would ask the LRI for a ruling on whether the CIS logo is considered a numeral.

[Ginger Power]

Originally Posted by Richard Wallace

(emphasis mine)

I'm sorry but I agree with Gary. If I were your robot inspector, I would ask the LRI for a ruling on whether the CIS logo is considered a numeral.

A numeral is any symbol that represents a number. It is most definitely a numeral. The only question is whether it's ambiguous or not. The only opinion that matters is Big Al at this point because the LRI at our events has already deferred to him. I'm also a robot inspector so I know the process. It's interesting hear the opinions from everybody.

I've talked to numerous teams that have seen our bumpers and want to do the same with their logos. The ruling here does set a precedent, and is important that we clarify it now.

[bachster]

I think it also needs to be read in context with R27 (emphasis mine):

Each ROBOT must be able to display Red or Blue BUMPERS to match their ALLIANCE color, as assigned in the MATCH schedule distributed at the event (reference Section 5 (5.1.1 MATCH Schedules)). BUMPER Markings visible when installed on the ROBOT, other than those explicitly allowed per R21-D or required per R28, are prohibited.

R21-D:

... The only markings permitted on the BUMPER fabric cover are the Team number (see R28) and hook-and-loop backed by the hard parts of the BUMPER.

I have a hard time interpreting the letters "CIS" as a number.

If we desire to continue to be able to add some personalization to bumpers by using custom fonts, I suggest that we not go down the slippery slope of pushing the limits on what can and cannot be interpreted as a number. To quote the blue box of R28, "The intent is that the Team’s number is clearly visible and unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS." If teams start clouding their numbers with logos and calling it a "font choice," we can look forward to a rule next year where numbers must be printed in Times New Roman.

[Christopher149]

Originally Posted by R27

Each ROBOT must be able to display Red or Blue BUMPERS to match their ALLIANCE color, as assigned in the MATCH schedule distributed at the event (reference Section 5 (5.1.1 MATCH Schedules)). BUMPER Markings visible when installed on the ROBOT, other than those explicitly allowed per R21-D or required per R28, are prohibited.

So, is the "CIS" part of the numbers, or and additional marking?

Edit: sniped by bachster

[catmanjake]

I have a hard time interpreting the letters "CIS" as a number.

If we desire to continue to be able to add some personalization to bumpers by using custom fonts, I suggest that we not go down the slippery slope of pushing the limits on what can and cannot be interpreted as a number. To quote the blue box of R28, "The intent is that the Team’s number is clearly visible and unambiguous so that Judges, Referees, Announcers, and other Teams can easily identify competing ROBOTS." If teams start clouding their numbers with logos and calling it a "font choice," we can look forward to a rule next year where numbers must be printed in Times New Roman.[/quote]

Agree with the above. We have two 0's in our number and I wouldn't think of putting our logo for them. Slippery slope indeed.

[rich2202]

Your problem is that you asked ahead of time. Now when you show up, your LRI could say: I replied that they were not legal, so go fix them.

However, if you just showed up at a competition, they would be hard pressed to DQ you for only that. They want teams to play, and that does not cause a safety or material rule infraction (like extending 30" past your frame perimeter).