Team Update 13 (2016)

[Hallry]

Last Friday Update of the 2016 season!

https://firstfrc.blob.core.windows.n...Updates/13.pdf

Interesting addition of a Blue Box under Section 5.5.3 REFEREE Interaction, T19:

As a process improvement, in this year’s REFEREE training we
instructed them to not record details about FOULS and TECHNICAL
FOULS; as a result, we don’t expect REFEREES to recall details
about what FOULS or TECHNICAL FOULS were made, when they
occurred, and against whom.

The goal is to increase consistency across events while enabling and
empowering REFEREES to focus on the play on the FIELD (instead
of worrying about keeping detailed records during the MATCH). Any
reasonable question is fair game in the Question Box, and Head
REFEREES will do good faith efforts to provide helpful feedback (e.g.
how/why certain FOULS are being called, why a particular ROBOT
may be susceptible to certain FOULS based on its design or game
play, how specific rules are being called or interpreted), but please
know that they will likely not be able to supply specific details.

[Michael Hill]

Well that's going to be annoying.

[Chris is me]

"Process Improvement"? Seriously?

How could this possibly increase consistency? How is anyone supposed to know if things are more consistent if they don't even know what's being called? How are teams supposed to avoid fouls if they don't know how they got them?

I frankly don't understand how this could possibly be a good idea. Lots of heartbroken teams, lots of confusion, fewer prevented fouls, all for what?

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Seems like a pretty bad change from my view. Like because of some potentially bad calls every couple times a year, the bar for all events will be lowered just so that they are all consistent?

[RoboTigers1796]

This is ridiculous. This must be a joke like the 10th defense, right? right?

How can they increase consistency across events if you completely abandon record keeping to see what is being called and how?

And so does this mean rather then a traditional match where they announce scores and say "Blue alliance won 25-10 and there was a foul on team XXX for violation XXX for extending outside the field" after a match they will just be saying there were 3 fouls on the red alliance, they lost because of it, but who knows what they were for because the referees don't recall

How in this in any way, shape, or form better for accountability, teams correcting the error/knowing what they did wrong, or for the viewers watching the matches?

[Ian Curtis]

To what level of detail were referees previously instructed to record the details of fouls / tech fouls?

I think all teams have a reasonable expectation that referees should be able to say at a high level, "This robot got this penalty for doing this thing." At the same time, no team should expect a 20 page report. If the intent of this blue box was to make it clear that no 20 page reports will be issued, I think that's fine. But as written, having no expectation to be told which robot incurred the penalty is a big step backwards in consistency. In my experience, a reasonable percentage of teams at events do not know the rules very well & may have no clue that what they are doing is causing the fouls... the only way to stop the fouls is to inform them!

[Akash Rastogi]

"Process Improvement"

By definition, that's supposed to, ya know, improve something.

I definitely think FIRST dropped the ball on this one and will regret making this decision. I predict the majority of teams taking issue with this.

[carpedav000]

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

[Steve Kaneb]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

This is probably just giving an example for the "extended and egregious" flag in the Violation field, which awards a red card.

[rich2202]

Originally Posted by carpedav000

Does G22 mean you can pin somebody for fifteen seconds or did I misread it?

What Steve said. 5 seconds is still a pin, AND that includes the time it takes you to move at least 6' away (you are still considered pinning the robot if you are within 6' of it).

What it does clarify: If you pin for 15 seconds, you are getting a red card and disqualified from the match (or DQ the entire alliance during Eliminations). Team's won't be able to complain about the Red Card (was it really egregious) if they pinned a robot for 15 seconds.

[Kevin Kolodziej]

When I used to be a ref, I was always instructed to specifically go FIND AND TALK TO THE TEAM that I called a foul on, no matter how insignificant or obvious the penalty was. We want teams to play at their absolute best and if a team has no idea they are doing something wrong, I think they may have some room to improve.

Also, if there is no recording of the fouls, does this mean there will be no announcing of the fouls to the audience?

[Andrew Schreiber]

I won't be mad about this if it means defense crossings are called reliably and consistently. I still have flashbacks to '14 and assists just being flat out missed/made up.

[Mike Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Kevin Kolodziej

Also, if there is no recording of the fouls, does this mean there will be no announcing of the fouls to the audience?

This is my bigger concern. Fouls will be very confusing to the audience - especially if they decide a match or even an event and it isn't announced. I can't see that happening where someone calls a foul and says 'oh I forgot what I called' but this allows it.

Also just a general comment; Refs are volunteers - lay off them. No one is out to get you.

[Brandon Holley]

I share concerns with the group of you as far as not being able to inform teams what actually happened when a foul was called. There will definitely be times that this decides a match and will be very annoying for the parties involved.

All that being said, I do think the emphasis on calling things right and keeping focus on the game at all times will create a positive benefit. Hopefully there are no missed defensive crossings, boulders are being tracked properly, etc.

I'm very cautiously optimistic this will create some improvement as far as calling the game, as its played, properly. Unfortunately, being called with a foul and not being able to figure out what you did wrong will be very frustrating to teams.


-Brando

[MasterMentor]

Hah, I was wondering how they'd deal with that. This game has the potential of being penalty crazy - push three balls into the other team's secret passage while your robot itself goes in there, and that's like three tech fouls and a couple regular fouls too. I can see it getting nasty with rookie teams doing dumb stuff and the referee spending all their time writing down penalties and not seeing my defense crossing. I really hope there aren't many penalties, but I see this game being a potential powder keg with the penalties. I'd assume I can still ask "what were all the penalties on blue alliance?" and being given a general, "lots of techs for balls in the passage, several for tossing balls over defenses, and a few for getting touched while in the opponent's passage." Maybe we won't be told exactly who committed the foul and exactly why, but I figure the alliance will know.

Crossing my fingers that FIRST knows what they're doing.

-G