Al's 2016 Inspection Thread

[FrankJ]

I think most of the bumper confusion is teams trying to fit the rules to their robot rather than the robot to the rules. The 2011 rules had the effect that the minimum frame segment was 6" since the minimum bumper length was 6 inches. IE no round robots. Gaps in bumpers were not allowed in 2011. I think the current rule phrasing came about from changes that allows bumper gaps & round robots. Better phrasing might be segments less than 16" require full bumpers and segment greater than 16" require 8" from each vertex since that is the effect of the current rule.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Al,

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be less than 16" (8" from EACH of the vertices)?

R19 ROBOTS are required to use BUMPERS to protect all outside corners of the FRAME PERIMETER. For adequate protection, at least 8 in. of BUMPER must be placed on each side of each out side corner (see Figure 4-3). If a side is shorter than 8 in., the entire side must be protected by BUMPER (see Figure 4-4).

[Nate Laverdure]

Originally Posted by Daniel_LaFleur

Just out of curiosity, wouldn't it be less than 16" (8" from EACH of the vertices)?

This is one of the biggest faults of the bumper rules. It's very unhelpful for R19 to repeat that the entire side <8" must be protected by BUMPER, when earlier statements make it obvious that this MUST be the case for rules-compliant bumpers with sides <16". The poorly worded statement is probably causing misinterpretations and mistakes. But unfortunately it's been repeated around FRC for so long that it might be ingrained at this point.

[dradel]

Al,
Question for you regarding the "dump" valve on pneumatic system.
Does it matter if the valve is before or after the regulator? Ie on high pressure side or low pressure side, as long as it completely vents all pressure from system.
I couldn't seem to find a rule that dictates placement. Closest I could find was R83 stating the only devices that "may" be on high side.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

R89 Any pressure vent plug must be:
A. connected to the pneumatic circuit such that, when manually operated, it will vent to the
atmosphere to relieve all stored pressure in a reasonable amount of time, and
B. placed on the ROBOT so that it is visible and easily accessible.

When you place it downstream from the regulator is takes longer to release all pressure so that is why most people put it upstream.

[Mike Schreiber]

I noticed a discrepancy in interpretation between myself and another inspector at my event last weekend with regard to what counts as 'automotive motors' and since I will be inspecting at several more events this year I'd like a bit of clarification.

To qualify as an automotive motor, does it have to be a production part on a vehicle. In the interest of cost savings, is there any reason an aftermarket part that is intended for the same function would not be acceptable?

Are power lift gate motors considered door motors? What if these vehicles are referred to as 5 door models (hatchbacks).

If we cannot remove a COTS gearbox from the window motor, can we do so on other automotive motors? What if you could buy that motor without the gearbox? What is considered integral to the mechanical integrity of the motor?

Perhaps this would be better on Q&A, but since it doesn't really impact my team I wasn't going to request we ask it there.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by Mike Schreiber

...
Are power lift gate motors considered door motors? What if these vehicles are referred to as 5 door models (hatchbacks).

Originally Posted by Q&A

Q811 Q. Hello all, we have a motor labeled as a rear gate motor, does this fall as a door motor or not? Thanks.
FRC0247 on 2016-02-12
A. No, a rear gate motor is not a door motor and thus not permitted.

So be sure to label it a rear door motor?

[Alan Anderson]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

When you place it downstream from the regulator is takes longer to release all pressure so that is why most people put it upstream.

That's usually the case, but not always. If you have working-pressure accumulators, for whatever reason, it can easily take less time to release if your dump valve is on the low side of the primary regulator.

[dradel]

My team couldn't pass inspection due to being on low side. When the students questioned this the inspector just walked away and wouldn't listen to reading of rules or reason.
Personally I don't think it matters one way or the other, but in the name of safety it is safer on the low side in my opinion.

[rsisk]

Two things would have helped the majority of teams at San Diego this year...


1. Read AND UNDERSTAND the bumper rules
2. Update your driverstation software

This is the advice I sent to all the SD teams as their LRI...

DRIVER STATION UPDATE
Team update 12 included an update to the Driver station software. Your driver station MUST be updated before you can compete in San Diego. Please update your software before you come to the competition.

https://decibel.ni.com/content/docs/DOC-46527

COST ACCOUNTING WORKSHEET
Every team must show a completed Cost Accounting Worksheet (we used to call them your Bill of Materials) in order to pass inspection. You can find a suggested format attached. Please have this filled out before you come to the competition

INSPECTION WORKSHEET
Want to get through inspection quickly? Have a look at the attached inspection checklist for the rules you must comply with before you will be allowed to compete.

BUMPERS
Make sure your bumpers are compliant with Section 4.7 Bumper Rules in the Game Manual. If you think there might be a problem, be sure to bring the appropriate material and parts to correct your bumpers at the competition. You must have legal bumpers (both red and blue) before you can compete.

[FrankJ]

Originally Posted by dradel

My team couldn't pass inspection due to being on low side. When the students questioned this the inspector just walked away and wouldn't listen to reading of rules or reason.
Personally I don't think it matters one way or the other, but in the name of safety it is safer on the low side in my opinion.

R89 requires the vent valve release all pressure in the system. If the regulator is set to 0 pressure, a low (working) pressure vent will not vent the high pressure (stored) side.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by dradel

My team couldn't pass inspection due to being on low side. When the students questioned this the inspector just walked away and wouldn't listen to reading of rules or reason.
Personally I don't think it matters one way or the other, but in the name of safety it is safer on the low side in my opinion.

What was "on the low side"? You have the right to call in the LRI at your event for a decision and they all have my contact info to ask about a ruling they are unsure of. If your pressure was low, was it at the output of the regulator or was the storage pressure too low? In the case of the working pressure being low, that is within the legal limits. A team can set the pressure to whatever they want as long as it does not exceed 60psi. However, many valves get flaky at lower pressure.
If the "storage pressure" was low, was the compressor turning off? If not, you had a significant leak.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

What was "on the low side"?

Their vent plug was on the low pressure side of the regulator.

[dradel]

Originally Posted by FrankJ

R89 requires the vent valve release all pressure in the system. If the regulator is set to 0 pressure, a low (working) pressure vent will not vent the high pressure (stored) side.

Ok I'll bite, why would the regulator be set to zero?
My point is the rule is open to not only interpretation, but also becomes a matter of opinion. The rules don't say must or shall be on the high side, but rather says must have one.
We had one that infact did empty the system completely, he just didn't like it on the low side, and seeing as there is no rule that says must be on high side it became his opinion.

How are teams going to be able to figure out what one persons opinion is going to be?

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by dradel

Ok I'll bite, why would the regulator be set to zero?
My point is the rule is open to not only interpretation, but also becomes a matter of opinion. The rules don't say must or shall be on the high side, but rather says must have one.
We had one that infact did empty the system completely, he just didn't like it on the low side, and seeing as there is no rule that says must be on high side it became his opinion.

How are teams going to be able to figure out what one persons opinion is going to be?

That's why teams ALWAYS have the right to appeal to the LRI. I know as an LRI, I will walk a team through any rule in question and make sure they understand why the ruling is the way it is. Most, if not all, of the other LRI's I know will do the same.

It's unfortunate, but it's practically an impossibility to properly train every inspector for every situation they may encounter when looking at a robot. I always tell my inspectors that if they aren't 100% positive about something, they need to come get me. If a team has a problem with a ruling, the inspector need to come get me. It makes it a busy day for me (50k steps during the 3 days at the Duluth regional alone!), but that's why I'm there!