FIM Flagged Penalty NOT recorded costs us a Finals Opportunity

[Team5234]

Hello everyone.

I know there is a forum entitled "Missed penalties" for week one. But, our situation was different. It wasn't "Missed". It was flagged, however at the end of the match when the scores were revealed, there was no penalties on the score board. The match ended with us losing. The score of the match was 111 us to 115 them. This was our Semifinals match 1.3 "the tiebreaker" to see who advanced to the finals. Had the penalty been assessed at the end, we would have won by one point and advanced to the finals where we really would have had a chance to take the event as the district winners.

I know this may sound like we are just venting, but this was VERY frustrating to us yesterday at our Week One Event at FIM-Kettering University #1 and we want as many people to be aware. We are certain nothing can become of it since we all went to the Head Referee and there ruling is what matters. But, let me explain.

We were lucky enough to be chose with the #1 Seeded Alliance by teams 5150 and 5114. For that we are most grateful. We won our quarterfinal matches with scores of 113 to 59 and 156 to 123.

We advanced to the Semifinal rounds. Where we lost the first match 74 to 132 and won our second match 103 to 102. It is the third match where we had issues with.

I will include the video of the final match. You can watch the entire thing if you wish, however at 3:26 into the video, you clearly see the Ref flag the blue team for G22 rule violation.

Then, take a look at the first picture I attach. The final score: Us 111 to them 115. Now look closely NO PENALTY listed.

We brought this to the attention of our Alliance Captain, Team 5150. He then approached the yellow shirted head ref. He said there was no errors. Then, our alliance member team 5114 brought it to his attention. Again, no changes were made to reflect the score or the penalty. We then even brought this video directly to the head ref, he watched it. We showed him even the picture showing 0 penalties. The ref that flagged the blue alliance agreed he did wave a foul towards the blue alliance. However, the head ref tells us that the penalty foul that was issued was for an increase in our Tower Strength and would not reflect any changes to the score. And, his ruling stood.

But, here's the kicker: There is NO PENALTY in the rule book with a stand alone increase in the tower strength as the final picture I attach proves. There are only 2 types of fouls: a standard foul or a technical foul. The standard foul is an addition of 5 points credited to the opponents score. The technical foul includes the 5 points AND strength of the tower is increased by 1.

I know it's week one, but this very well could have cost us our very FIRST district title and quite possibly a chance to advance to our State's Competition. But, we rely on the judges to KNOW the rules. We respected his stance and to be clear, we weren't rude or pushed the issue. All 3 of us (our alliance) approached the head ref, and felt we all tried. We never received a yellow card during our encounters. So, this shows we weren't being overly rude about it and kept our "gracious professionalism" about the situation.

So, I wanted to share our experience with all of you. And, thank you for listening.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQLu...ature=youtu.be

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...48&oe=5768D316

https://scontent-ord1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...6f&oe=57611F17

[Sperkowsky]

Yea it is very clear you guys were correct. I'm sorry. That really stinks. I'm sure with a bot as good as yours that you will have more success at your next event.

[Justin Montois]

That's a bummer. You wonder where the penalty went. My guess is the referee that called the penalty didn't enter it into the touchscreen correctly.

Even more unfortunate is that the Head Referee acknowledged the call but, as you said, somehow felt it was a "tower strength only" penalty which we all know doesn't exist.

Whenever there is a human element there well of course be mistakes but I'm with you that this must be incredibly tough to swallow. Good luck in your future events, keep your team positive and working hard, I'll be rooting for you.

[KrazyCarl92]

Nevermind, looks like G28 would have been the call.

[Clinton Bolinger]

G28 During the final twenty (20) seconds of TELEOP, ROBOTS in their COURTYARD may not contact
an opponent ROBOT.

Violation: The contacted ROBOT is considered to have SCALED an open side of the TOWER at the
end of the MATCH.

If a robot touches an opponent robot in the last 20 seconds in their court yard, the opponent gets scale points not a foul. Therefore your team received 15 points in the challenge/scale category.

As seen here: http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2016miket_sf1m3

At the end of the match you only had one robot on the batter (5 points).

I feel that the refs made the right call.

-Clinton

[orangemoore]

Originally Posted by Clinton Bolinger

G28 During the final twenty (20) seconds of TELEOP, ROBOTS in their COURTYARD may not contact
an opponent ROBOT.

Violation: The contacted ROBOT is considered to have SCALED an open side of the TOWER at the
end of the MATCH.

If a robot touches an opponent robot in the last 20 seconds in their court yard, the opponent gets scale points not a foul. Therefore your team received 15 points in the challenge/scale category.

As seen here: http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2016miket_sf1m3

At the end of the match you only had one robot on the batter (5 points).

I feel that the refs made the right call.

-Clinton

But a scale is 15 points + 5 (the robot on the batter) = 20 It seems like they were shorted 5 points.

[FIMAlumni]

Originally Posted by orangemoore

But a scale is 15 points + 5 (the robot on the batter) = 20 It seems like they were shorted 5 points.

"A ROBOT has CHALLENGED the TOWER if, at the conclusion of the MATCH, the ROBOT is fully
supported by the TOWER, but hasn’t met the criteria for SCALING the TOWER."

and under G28 "The contacted ROBOT is considered to have SCALED an open side of the TOWER at the end of the MATCH."

Reading these together makes me think the refs made the right call in awarding a scale but not a challenge. Congratulations on being a semifinalist in a week 1 event, it is a fantastic accomplishment in itself.

[Team5234]

Thank you for clarifying it Clinton. When we kept asking we were told it was "added tower" by the head ref. So, we thought he was referring to adding strength. So, the clarification really puts our minds at ease.

However, now we feel like fools for "whining" about it. Considering deleting the thread, but it is such a good lesson learned now. And, maybe others could learn from this as well.

So, I want to formally apologize for any misconceptions we had on the call and to the head referee. You did have the right call.

So sorry!

[HurdFIRST]

Originally Posted by Team5234

Thank you for clarifying it Clinton. When we kept asking we were told it was "added tower" by the head ref. So, we thought he was referring to adding strength. So, the clarification really puts our minds at ease.

However, now we feel like fools for "whining" about it. Considering deleting the thread, but it is such a good lesson learned now. And, maybe others could learn from this as well.

So, I want to formally apologize for any misconceptions we had on the call and to the head referee. You did have the right call.

So sorry!

Having been on the field while all this was happening, I'm going to let you in on some of what was said to me. A few of the refs on the field expressed that they themselves had been students once, and they too remember arguing with head refs over calls that were correctly made.

They understand that in that moment, when you feel like the closest chance you've yet had to win a district is slipping through your fingertips, you're keenly aware that the next match is about to be played. You know your window for "justice" is closing, and your adrenaline is pumping. The refs understand that in the competition environment, sometimes no amount of explanation is going to be able to win the battle between logic and emotion, and that's the point at which the refs step away and move on to the next match.

You guys battled hard this weekend. I'm proud of yall. The teams on your alliance brought an energy to the event that made the building buzz. As an MC/GA, that's something we can't manufacture on our own.

This weekend can be a peak or a stepping stone, it's on you guys to decide which it will be. Either way, good luck at Lansing! It was a pleasure being your GA.

[New Lightning]

Look at Colorado 2014, SF 2-1. I was part of the team that was seated #2 overall, In this match the referees' came over and flagged the pinning foul twice. And logged it in the system, it was on the screen in the middle of the match. When it disappeared in the final score we were thoroughly confused and upset. But after looking back on it we realized that there really shouldn't have been a foul. Not saying this is the same situation but it does happen were fouls are called and then changed after the fact, or there not called.

What I have come to realize is that the refs are human beings and mistakes do happen. There is nothing that we can do to change them and expending tremendous amounts of effort, such as starting a thread on chief Delphi. Do we wish that the situation would have been different yes. Realistically can we do anything about it, no. While I sympathize I hope that one day you can get passed this and focus on your next event.

[GaryVoshol]

I corresponded with the original poster and he (she?) agreed this thread could be restored.

Please remember that the poster has seen the error of his ways and has apologized. That's why this thread is being restored.

[Bob Steele]

a General note regarding referee interactions (from the rules, emphasis added)

5.5.3 REFEREE Interaction
The Head REFEREE has the ultimate authority in the ARENA during the event, but may receive input from
additional sources, e.g. Game Designers, FIRST personnel, FTA, and technical staff. The Head REFEREE rulings are final. No event personnel, including the Head REFEREE, will review video, photos, artistic
renderings, etc. of any MATCH, from any source, under any circumstances.

[matthewdenny]

Originally Posted by Team5234

Thank you for clarifying it Clinton. When we kept asking we were told it was "added tower" by the head ref. So, we thought he was referring to adding strength. So, the clarification really puts our minds at ease.



However, now we feel like fools for "whining" about it. Considering deleting the thread, but it is such a good lesson learned now. And, maybe others could learn from this as well.



So, I want to formally apologize for any misconceptions we had on the call and to the head referee. You did have the right call.



So sorry!

A understandable misunderstanding. It is really big of you to accept that you were mistaken. That is a hard thing to do. Even for adults.