Are 8 play regional reasonable?

[Doug Frisk]

Originally Posted by Mr V

At this rate I fear that the teams in MN will be the last to benefit from all of the advantages of the District System, and I fear it is going to take a mandate from FIRST which I don't think that will turn out all that well.

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

[waialua359]

About the only disappointing thing about the DECCer FRC event this past weekend was only 8 matches.
We were just joking about the $$/qualification match and how it was just way too expensive.

Champs in Atlanta used to be pretty bad also with 7 matches only in Quals.

[nighterfighter]

Originally Posted by DareDad

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

Marginally more matches?

Even if you only get 8 matches per district event, you still get two district events. That's twice as many, and in reality you probably get closer to 9 or 10 matches per event.

Plus there are also district champs, which is another set of matches. Meaning if a team wins district champs and goes to the actual champs, they have 3 times the amount of field time/driver practice under their belt as a team who only went to a regional.

[AGPapa]

Originally Posted by DareDad

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

Originally Posted by nighterfighter

Marginally more matches?

Even if you only get 8 matches per district event, you still get two district events. That's twice as many, and in reality you probably get closer to 9 or 10 matches per event.

Plus there are also district champs, which is another set of matches. Meaning if a team wins district champs and goes to the actual champs, they have 3 times the amount of field time/driver practice under their belt as a team who only went to a regional.

Every district event has 12 qualification matches. That's 24 matches over two district events, or three times as many matches for the same registration cost of one regional.

Additional advantages for the district system come from treating FRC as a sport with a competition season, rather than treating it like an annual science fair.

[cadandcookies]

Originally Posted by DareDad

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

Marginally more matches? You mean 2-3x as many?

The opportunity to compete with different teams from around the district area? The opportunity for more of our teams to qualify for Championships and have that life-altering experience? The missing less school and work because we can run events Friday-Saturday or even Saturday-Sunday? The less stress per match because we have a guaranteed second event to iterate for? The playing in a large arena being actually meaningful instead of just expected? The opportunity to train more volunteers faster?

If you want me to go on I can. I'm sorry but implying districts wouldn't be a net positive is ridiculous and just about all available evidence points to the contrary.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by DareDad

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

We get it, you don't like districts you'd rather have cheering and dancing because you have this ill conceived notion you run the best events in FRC and somehow having teams get more actual time hands on with their robots would ruin that.

So, here's what you'd get, you'd get more stick time, lower costs for the majority of teams[1], more competitive robots [2], more chances for more people to see events, more of a season to help build interest... The fact that it's a better experience for teams is reason enough. The fact that it helps drive STEM in your state should be even more reason. Oh, and the big win? You get to still have your huge event but this time without the doldrums of the first couple matches wherein teams don't move reliably. Instead by this point EVERY robot can compete and do something. And that, that makes for a much better event.

And no, I haven't been to an FRC event in MN yet. Maybe one of these years I'll invest in enough cold weather gear that I won't freeze to death and come up that way. [3]



[1] SOME teams may travel more due to multiple events, they still reap the benefits of more time. I don't recall the geographic distribution of MN teams so I can't tell you if laying out events would be easier.

[2] Zondag research showed a correlation between more matches played at robot effectiveness. And I think we all anecdotally know this.

[3] Not that NH is much better... god I miss Florida.

[LFrisk]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

We get it, you don't like districts you'd rather have cheering and dancing because you have this ill conceived notion you run the best events in FRC and somehow having teams get more actual time hands on with their robots would ruin that.

I won't get into other things with this post, but this annoyed me especially. As far as I know, his worry rests more with the fact that he would probably have to do 6 straight weekends of competition in a row, not to mention Worlds. Minnesota already has 4 large regionals, 5 if you were to count Iowa, and Minnesota would probably need 12 districts to accommodate all the teams here. To my knowledge, there are two scorekeepers and two or three FTAs in Minnesota FIRST. I don't know for sure, but I believe that there are only two or three Head Refs in Minnesota. (Don't quote me on that last one.) I know that Daredad has already done Northern Lights and will be scorekeeping at one of the Twin cities regionals, in addition to Iowa. I assume the FTAs and other Scorekeepers are equally busy. Would you want them to have that much more work for 10 more minutes of match time per event?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by LFrisk

I won't get into other things with this post, but this annoyed me especially. As far as I know, his worry rests more with the fact that he would probably have to do 6 straight weekends of competition in a row, not to mention Worlds. Minnesota already has 4 large regionals, 5 if you were to count Iowa, and Minnesota would probably need 12 districts to accommodate all the teams here. To my knowledge, there are two scorekeepers and two or three FTAs in Minnesota FIRST. I don't know for sure, but I believe that there are only two or three Head Refs in Minnesota. (Don't quote me on that last one.) I know that Daredad has already done Northern Lights and will be scorekeeping at one of the Twin cities regionals, in addition to Iowa. I assume the FTAs and other Scorekeepers are equally busy. Would you want them to have that much more work for 10 more minutes of match time per event?

How many JA's did NE have when it went to Districts? AT an event it's just as much work as a scorekeeper or a FTA. [1] If it meant that 40 teams would have a better experience I'd do that job every weekend for the entire season.[2]

So I'm not asking them to do anything I am not currently doing. My schedule this year: UMD - Judge and Planning Committee, Rhode Island - Competing, Boston - Judge Advisor, Pine Tree - Competing (or if they are still short on judges... filling in), DCMP - Competing (or if they are still short on judges... filling in), and CMP - Judging. And I nearly ended up flying to Arkansas this week to fill in when their JA backed out.

So, feel free to be annoyed, but I put my money where my mouth is.




[1] I've done scorekeeping, haven't done FTA, Im not trivializing the roles.

[2] Last year I judged weeks 3,7, and CMP and JA'd week 5 because I think the judging process is important.

[bkahl]

Originally Posted by LFrisk

Minnesota already has 4 large regionals, 5 if you were to count Iowa

Last I checked Iowa was its own state.

That is, unless it was swallowed up since I last visited my family there...

[ratdude747]

Originally Posted by maxnz

I have a feeling that Minnesota or the upper Midwest (MN, WI, IA, ND and/or SD) will become the next district within the next few years. We already have four regionals, two in Duluth and two in the twin cities, plus a regional in Iowa.

Originally Posted by Mr V

I think that 8 qualification matches is too few, no question about it.

Fact is that MN should have joined the district system years ago. Every year that passes it gets far harder to implement.

I've heard the cries that you don't have enough volunteers but that will never get better unless the move is made to the district system sooner rather than later.

At this point it is still possible to make it work with 2 events per weekend. Once you cross that 240 team count then it will require 3 matches on at least one weekend and then it does almost become impossible to implement the district system.

Yes MI has more than 2 events per weekend, however they did not start out that way, they had time to build up the resources, whether we are talking about volunteers, funding or equipment.

At this rate I fear that the teams in MN will be the last to benefit from all of the advantages of the District System, and I fear it is going to take a mandate from FIRST which I don't think that will turn out all that well.

Based on what I heard during my stint on Hopper field last year, the main issue with MN going to districts is the lack of a 503c organization to oversee it. Districts require such an organization; we in Indiana found out last year that part of the reduced costs are the result off Manchester doing less and offloading more of the responsibilities on the district. It's both good and bad, I'll get to that in a bit:

Originally Posted by DareDad

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

It's a better experince for everybody, in general. Teams get more matches per season, as they get two district events for the price of one regional. The event costs are lower as it's done in such Gyms and often w/o a pro AV crew. It's a more efficient system.

Smaller events for some (dare I say most) teams is a plus. It's a lot more personal, as with a smaller field of competing teams you get to know other teams better. The smaller venues tend to get louder too, which really adds to the feel of the event during match play. It's a different feel that IMHO is superior to the feel of a regional.

Then there is the community aspect of it. Districts only work if the volunteer base is very strong. This is why Indiana survived last year, because of a volunteer family that works thier butts off for the sake of FIRST and the teams. No need for a pro AV crew, we have volunteers who have worked AV for offseason events for years. In fact, district events are more akin to two-day offseason events, only with offical awards. In that regard IRI was the first district event ever, in a way.

Finally, in a bizarre way, districts are better for volunteers. Yes, we have to work harder, but it's also a good thing. It builds the local FIRST family, as you get to see and work with each other more. You also get more events to build your volunteer skills. Last year was my first year scorekeeping. By the start of championship I had FOUR official events under my belt. Due to that, I was allowed to scorekeep at championship despite being a rookie. If you want to try different positions, while offseason events are good as well, districts allow one to have variety in their volunteer work if they want. As a volunteer, I've preferred districts for these reasons.

If you don't believe me, I suggest attending (or even volunteering) at a district event some time, if you can. You might just change your mind.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by LFrisk

I won't get into other things with this post, but this annoyed me especially. As far as I know, his worry rests more with the fact that he would probably have to do 6 straight weekends of competition in a row, not to mention Worlds. Minnesota already has 4 large regionals, 5 if you were to count Iowa, and Minnesota would probably need 12 districts to accommodate all the teams here. To my knowledge, there are two scorekeepers and two or three FTAs in Minnesota FIRST. I don't know for sure, but I believe that there are only two or three Head Refs in Minnesota. (Don't quote me on that last one.) I know that Daredad has already done Northern Lights and will be scorekeeping at one of the Twin cities regionals, in addition to Iowa. I assume the FTAs and other Scorekeepers are equally busy. Would you want them to have that much more work for 10 more minutes of match time per event?

So how exactly do you recruit more FTAs into the region if there are only three FTA "spots?" If the regionals don't advertise that they need FTAs, because all their FTA spots are filled, how is anyone supposed to learn how to do the job or even know that it is needed?

The same thing goes with any other key volunteer position. I hear this argument all the time: "My region can't go into districts because we don't have enough key volunteers." But how are you supposed to get those key volunteers if there is nowhere for volunteers to go? In other words, you really have to just bite the bullet and go into districts in order to get those key volunteers. You won't get enough volunteers for 16 district events if you only have three regionals to put your volunteers in. I think you'd be surprised how many volunteers will show up if the spots are open.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by DareDad

Apart from a pile of disjointed small events in high school gyms and marginally more matches per team, what are "All the advantages" of moving to a district system?

I'm not sure where you get the "disjointed small events" thing from. In the PNW district we are quite proud of the conisistency of our events and our production values. This is something that many other areas have noticed and those who are starting new districts contact us and many specifically request info on our production equipment and methods.

The list of benefits is long and if you search for posts by me or many others who have made the transition you can get a more comprehensive list as I don't have the time right now to give a comprehensive list.

ALL teams have the chance at what I call the true engineering experience of improving their performance after "real world" testing. Currently only teams that can come up with another $4000 and figure out travel expenses in most cases get that opportunity. This to me is the biggest benefit and the District System would be worth it on that alone.

24 guaranteed matches instead of 8 or 9 that many regionals offer is a huge benefit.

Higher likelihood of participating in finals and higher likelihood of winning a judged award.

Better chance of those great but not top teams earning a spot at CMP. Now this is only our 3rd year, but in the second year the non powerhouse teams that attended were generally a different group than had attended the first season we went to the District System.

Student satisfaction in the District System is greatly improved. Our first season I spent a lot of time in the pits talking to students across all levels of teams. NOT A SINGLE student wanted to go back to the Regional System. I did have mentors who were displeased because it meant more time off from work if they were going to support the team at every event for every day. That however has changed as we now have a number of Sat-Sun events which means no missing school for students and for those mentors that have the traditional 9-5/M-F job less time off of work.

I could go on for another page or two but we've still got 4 more hours of our unbag time and I've got to meet the team at the practice field hosted by 2557 SOTAbots so our programmers can work on scoring a boulder in auto instead of just getting a crossing, and to get a little more time behind the glass for our drive team.

[The other Gabe]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Student satisfaction in the District System is greatly improved. Our first season I spent a lot of time in the pits talking to students across all levels of teams. NOT A SINGLE student wanted to go back to the Regional System.

this. I did 2 years under the regionals and two years under district format, and it is so fantastic to be able to go to at least 2, usually 3 or 4 events (my team is good most years :v ), for a much lower cost than 3 events would cost if you were doing regional events. not to mention that the smaller district events are far more manageable when you account for schoolwork and missing class - Regionals take up far more time.

the district system is also far fairer IMO. in 2013, there's at least 3 teams I could list off the top of my head that absolutely deserved to go to world champs that couldn't since they didnt win anything at regionals. Due to the district points system, the team that gets second place at every event they go to earns their way to champs through that consistent quality.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by TCMJ1816

While watching Top 25 last night they brought up the point that many regional competition only offer 8 qualification plays per team. In Minnesota we have 208 teams, and a vast majority of those teams only get one event a year.

I see 2 major issues with this:
-This make the $5000 it costs to register for events pretty crazy, $625 a match isn't appealing for many of the low budget teams around FIRST.
-This also leaves the teams that do qualify for champs hugely unprepared. Most MN teams at champs will have ~20 plays, versus district teams that will have 40+ plays.

There definitely isn't a great solution to this problem, other than going to districts, but that has been addressed in the past.

40... Thats almost the min that most district teams will have. We aren't normal so coming into CMP with 100+ matches isn't common, but coming in with 60-80 is fairly easy to do in districts.

So no, it's a disadvantage to the teams coming into teams with only 14 matches (8 QM + 6 EM). It's also a stupid high cost per match.

It's also a big issue because the ranking algorithm gets more accurate the longer it can run.


In short, absolutely not.

[pHolmgren]

This is why the district system is great. It world fantastic here in PNW.