The Chokehold Strategy of 2016?

[BrennanB]

This was a strategy that was independently conceived by team 4476, and since we have now completed our season. Also credit to 610 who seems to have pulled this strategy out at GTR East for Semifinals Match 2-1. Basically this is a strategy to attempt to take down a high powered alliance at a regional/worlds

The whole concept is to block the opponents into their own secret passageway.



We need to look up the relevant rules:

G21 A ROBOT contacting carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE may not contact opposing
ROBOTS, regardless of who initiates the contact.
Violation: TECH FOUL

Can't touch them when both of you are in the secret passageway. Pretty simple

G22 ROBOTS may not pin an opponent’s ROBOT for more than five (5) seconds. A ROBOT will be
considered pinned until the ROBOTS have separated by at least six (6) feet. The pinning ROBOT(s)
must then wait for at least three (3) seconds before attempting to pin the same ROBOT again.
Pinning is transitory through other objects. If the pinned ROBOT chases the pinning ROBOT upon
retreat, the pinning ROBOT will not be penalized, and the pin will be considered complete.
Violation: FOUL. For every five (5) seconds in which the situation is not corrected, FOUL. If
extended and egregious, RED CARD

Can't pin them for more than 5 seconds. But this isn't a "traditional pin"

There is no FIRST Robotics Competition specific definition of pin, so a
general definition applies; “to prevent or stop something from moving.”
As a result, contact is not required for pinning to occur. For example, a
ROBOT parked right behind an opponent that is on the BATTER could
be considered pinning because the dividers on the BATTER and the
parked ROBOT prevent the opponent from moving.
Generally, pins that exceed fifteen (15) seconds are considered
extended and egregious, regardless of a pinning ROBOT’s mobility,
however circumstances vary and the assesment is open to REFEREE
discretion.

Here is the grey area. It says “to prevent or stop something from moving.” I interpret this section such that as long as they are able to move (for example they have 1/3 of the field that they can still move around in, this is fine.

The last part of the rules is the extreme grey area. "Generally, pins that exceed fifteen (15) seconds are considered
extended and egregious, regardless of a pinning ROBOT’s mobility,
however circumstances vary and the assesment is open to REFEREE
discretion." If you prevent a robot from getting to where they want to go in the match, but still (technically) have 1/3 of the field to drive on.

G25 A ROBOT may not attempt to stop or impede the flow of the MATCH in any of the following ways:
A. intentionally tipping over
B. coordinating a blockade of the FIELD with ALLIANCE members
C. blocking GOAL(S) while in contact with its own BATTER using anything outside its
FRAME PERIMETER except its BUMPERS
D. blocking more than one of the opponent’s HUMAN PLAYER STATION openings while not
contacting the carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE
E. isolating BOULDERS in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE from opponents while not
contacting the carpet in the opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE
Violation: YELLOW CARD for the ALLIANCE

Basically the only thing here is that you can't stop an opponent from entering their secret passage way per E, but you can stop them from coming out.

G26 At any given time, only one (1) ROBOT may contact the carpet or BATTER inside their
COURTYARD.
Violation: FOUL. For every five (5) seconds in which the situation is not corrected, TECH FOUL

If there is a defender in your own courtyard, the robot MUST exit by the secret passageway, or else they will incur a foul

G43 ROBOTS on the same half of the FIELD as their ALLIANCE TOWER may not interfere with
opponent ROBOTS attempting to traverse OUTER WORKS (regardless of direction). A ROBOT is
considered traversing the opponent’s OUTER WORKS if any part of its BUMPERS are within the
opponent’s OUTER WORKS and no part of it is in their opponent’s SECRET PASSAGE.
Violation: FOUL. For every five (5) seconds in which the situation is not corrected, FOUL

If there is no defender or they attempt to go around the secret passage and try to pass you via crossing your defenses, you are protected, so if you attempt to always cross the defense they are trying to get over, then they can't continue without incurring a foul.

It can also be used to block the third robot from a capture, if you know that your defender can outdrive them, similarly to 2013 how you would block a hang and go hang last second.

I consider this to be perfectly legal. What are your thoughts? Absolute worst case, you can only block them for 15 seconds.

[BBray_T1296]

You've gotten G21 flipped around. If the RED robot is in the BLUE passageway, they may not contact a BLUE robot.

If you are in your own passageway, you cannot draw a foul in that way

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Can be a pretty effective defense but I don't really see it as a chokehold. Especially since the defending robot has to drive in an arc around the secret passage while the red robot could turn 45 degrees from where it is at now and simply drive forward or back depending on position of the defending robot. Red robots could also work together to keep the defense on one side of the arc. I know at Arizona North, 2122 was pushing robots trying to block team 125's vision.

[smistthegreat]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

Can be a pretty effective defense but I don't really see it as a chokehold. Especially since the defending robot has to drive in an arc around the secret passage while the red robot could turn 45 degrees from where it is at now and simply drive forward or back depending on position of the depending robot. Red robots could also work together to keep the defense on one side of the arc. I know at Arizona North, 2122 was pushing robots trying to block team 125's vision.

This is my take on it too. Might be effective 1v1, but pretty easy to break out of as soon as a second red robot gets involved.

[IronicDeadBird]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

Can be a pretty effective defense but I don't really see it as a chokehold. Especially since the defending robot has to drive in an arc around the secret passage while the red robot could turn 45 degrees from where it is at now and simply drive forward or back depending on position of the depending robot. Red robots could also work together to keep the defense on one side of the arc. I know at Arizona North, 2122 was pushing robots trying to block team 125's vision.

If you have a robot herd a boulder out of the secret passage and in running your plan push that boulder back into their secret passage I believe that is a foul.
The current meta doesn't involve teams diving into the secret passage for balls when the human player can bowl them into the neutral.

So yeah the strategy would kinda work but it isn't a choke hold. And as stated before you got G21 flipped around. If you ran this you would actually pull fouls because a robot has the right of way in their own secret passage in regards to an opposing robot.

Also I'm agreeing with Rangel if that isn't clear dude knew his bidnizz in Arizona North

[Captain_Kirch]

So you're suggesting there are drivers skilled enough to pin a robot in a corner for ~15 seconds and they wouldn't initiate a pin during that 15 seconds else the would be the ones required to disengage per G22. Oh and of course, cross a defense and challenge the tower in the last 5 seconds, hoping the other driver cant do the same. It's not going to happen, this strategy is mutually assured destruction.

This works in 1 situation. You're winning by less than 25 points. You haven't weakened the tower. Your opponent has weakened the tower. Your opponent doesn't have enough hanging capable robots to take the lead even without a capture.

If you manage to get in that one insanely specific and unlikely place where you as the weaker alliance have a lead but have worse boulder score, go for it

[gp2013]

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

Can be a pretty effective defense but I don't really see it as a chokehold. Especially since the defending robot has to drive in an arc around the secret passage while the red robot could turn 45 degrees from where it is at now and simply drive forward or back depending on position of the depending robot. Red robots could also work together to keep the defense on one side of the arc. I know at Arizona North, 2122 was pushing robots trying to block team 125's vision.

I agree. While it makes sense on paper, having had my team's alliance run this defence at GTR-E, it is a larger area to protect than you think and you leave yourself open to collect fouls everytime your wheel is touching the carpet of the secret passage. Team 5596 was an excellent defender but a fast, powerful robot can easily push through one side while you are defending the other. If you try cutting the diagonal you will draw fouls. It is too open to referee interpretation to be worth it.

[Kevin Leonard]

So to me this is just a smart way to defend a robot that cycled back into their own secret passage. I don't see this as a chokehold, but just a smart way to run a defensive robot.

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by BBray_T1296

You've gotten G21 flipped around. If the RED robot is in the BLUE passageway, they may not contact a BLUE robot.

If you are in your own passageway, you cannot draw a foul in that way

Nope this is the way I interpret it. You misunderstand I believe.

Originally Posted by Rangel(kf7fdb)

Can be a pretty effective defense but I don't really see it as a chokehold. Especially since the defending robot has to drive in an arc around the secret passage while the red robot could turn 45 degrees from where it is at now and simply drive forward or back depending on position of the defending robot. Red robots could also work together to keep the defense on one side of the arc. I know at Arizona North, 2122 was pushing robots trying to block team 125's vision.

A 2v1 is still good for you, your defender (the worst robot) is taking up the time of their two best robots. And yes, ultimately it comes down to defender driving skill. I am quite certain that a team is capable of pulling this off.

Originally Posted by IronicDeadBird

If you have a robot herd a boulder out of the secret passage and in running your plan push that boulder back into their secret passage I believe that is a foul.
The current meta doesn't involve teams diving into the secret passage for balls when the human player can bowl them into the neutral.

So yeah the strategy would kinda work but it isn't a choke hold. And as stated before you got G21 flipped around. If you ran this you would actually pull fouls because a robot has the right of way in their own secret passage in regards to an opposing robot.

No, I have G21, correct, the BLUE robot defending the RED robot in the RED secret passage may not contacts the RED robot while touching the carpet of the RED secret passageway.

The robot sits there and blocks all the bowls. Pretty simple solution to that.

Originally Posted by Captain_Kirch

So you're suggesting there are drivers skilled enough to pin a robot in a corner for ~15 seconds and they wouldn't initiate a pin during that 15 seconds else the would be the ones required to disengage per G22. Oh and of course, cross a defense and challenge the tower in the last 5 seconds, hoping the other driver cant do the same. It's not going to happen, this strategy is mutually assured destruction.

This works in 1 situation. You're winning by less than 25 points. You haven't weakened the tower. Your opponent has weakened the tower. Your opponent doesn't have enough hanging capable robots to take the lead even without a capture.

If you manage to get in that one insanely specific and unlikely place where you as the weaker alliance have a lead but have worse boulder score, go for it

To each his own opinon, but 3rd robot of #1 seed will almost definitely be slower than #1/2 of a lower seeded alliance. I would put my confidence in them. I'm also not even sure if it is a "pin"

Originally Posted by gp2013

I agree. While it makes sense on paper, having had my team's alliance run this defence at GTR-E, it is a larger area to protect than you think and you leave yourself open to collect fouls everytime your wheel is touching the carpet of the secret passage. Team 5596 was an excellent defender but a fast, powerful robot can easily push through one side while you are defending the other. If you try cutting the diagonal you will draw fouls. It is too open to referee interpretation to be worth it.

5596 was driving in the RED secret passageway, as you stated. There are drivers that are able to not drive in the secret passageway.

Originally Posted by Kevin Leonard

So to me this is just a smart way to defend a robot that cycled back into their own secret passage. I don't see this as a chokehold, but just a smart way to run a defensive robot.

Correct, in most cases this is just a smart play. The "chokehold" is if the defender is very capable

[Mr. Lim]

All I can say right now is that it is challenging to pull off without drawing penalties, but still definitely possible.

It's not a chokehold, per se, because if your opponents know how to react to it, they can still get boulders - albeit much slower.

You need to make sure your team playing defence knows exactly what is allowed and what isn't, which is difficult to convey during Saturday lunch, without ever having practiced it.

You also need to invest the time in explaining to the refs what you are doing so they are going to call it as expected. Some things can be subject to interpretation.

Are you allowed to position yourself at the end of the opponent's SP and let opposing boulders bounce off you so they stay in the SP? You definitely should.

Should you be able to play defence in the neutral zone to prevent your opponents from getting balls that are outside the SP? Yes, of course, but if there are balls near the opening of the SP that you are defending, things get murky.

I also agree that you should be able to box opponents in to their own SP based on how the rules are currently written.

You need to tell the refs exactly what you expect to happen as well... and what penalties should be called in what circumstances.

Our attempt in SF2-1 at GTRE was not really well executed, but enough to prove the concept and learn how to improve on it. We held the opponent to 6 boulders scored, but there are a lot of penalty calls, so it's still very debatable. It wasn't a very close match when you see all the penalties.

I think it will catch on more as the weeks go by, however. Not too many will try due to the penalty potential, but those who can successfully do it will be able to pull some upsets. It might be interesting to see 2nd picks at Champs focused on teams who can play defense in this way effectively.

[gp2013]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lim

All I can say right now is that it is challenging to pull off without drawing penalties, but still definitely possible.

It's not a chokehold, per se, because if your opponents know how to react to it, they can still get boulders - albeit much slower.

You need to make sure your team playing defence knows exactly what is allowed and what isn't, which is difficult to convey during Saturday lunch, without ever having practiced it.

You also need to invest the time in explaining to the refs what you are doing so they are going to call it as expected. Some things can be subject to interpretation.

Are you allowed to position yourself at the end of the opponent's SP and let opposing boulders bounce off you so they stay in the SP? You definitely should.

Should you be able to play defence in the neutral zone to prevent your opponents from getting balls that are outside the SP? Yes, of course, but if there are balls near the opening of the SP that you are defending, things get murky.

I also agree that you should be able to box opponents in to their own SP based on how the rules are currently written.

You need to tell the refs exactly what you expect to happen as well... and what penalties should be called in what circumstances.

Our attempt in SF2-1 at GTRE was not really well executed, but enough to prove the concept and learn how to improve on it. We held the opponent to 6 boulders scored, but there are a lot of penalty calls, so it's still very debatable. It wasn't a very close match when you see all the penalties.

I think it will catch on more as the weeks go by, however. Not too many will try due to the penalty potential, but those who can successfully do it will be able to pull some upsets. It might be interesting to see 2nd picks at Champs focused on teams who can play defense in this way effectively.

Fair enough. I think all three alliance teams would need a significant amount of FRC experience to get those things to align (esp. convincing the referees) but there are many teams out there with that experience and at world's we will see them. I certainly would consider using it (or a variation of it) again (though I am waiting for the GTRE videos to go up online to review it) especially in a situation where we are facing a much stronger alliance. I do agree that we will see this defence run again as the season progresses.

[Ozuru]

How doesn't this violate G11?

G11: Strategies aimed solely at forcing the opposing ALLIANCE to violate a rule are not in the spirit of
FIRST Robotics Competition and not allowed. Rule violations forced in this manner will not result in
an assignment of a penalty to the targeted ALLIANCE.

Violation: FOUL. If egregious or repeated, YELLOW CARD

[BrennanB]

Originally Posted by Ozuru

How doesn't this violate G11?

Because it doesn't force anyone to take any penalties.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

G43 has nothing to do with preventing robots from traversing their own defense. It only says you can't contact the opposing robot in your own Outerworks. But you can still traverse them yourself (Alliance 4's defense robot drove through their Sally Port during the last 30 seconds of the match when they were facing Alliance 1 at Lakeview and received no penalties).

Therefore, no chokehold.

[Edxu]

Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man

G43 has nothing to do with preventing robots from traversing their own defense. It only says you can't contact the opposing robot in your own Outerworks. But you can still traverse them yourself (Alliance 4's defense robot drove through their Sally Port during the last 30 seconds of the match when they were facing Alliance 1 at Lakeview and received no penalties).

Therefore, no chokehold.

However, if they touch you while YOU'RE in their defense, they get a penalty. They are penalized for violating rule G43, as you are parked in the defense that they try to cross. G43 does not cover a robot stopping an opponent from trying to cross their own defenses.