Wild Card Spot Reform?

[nuclearnerd]

Here's an idea for thought: Should we even try to make sure more "good robots" make it to champs? If that were our primary concern, we could turn regionals into a show-dog style demonstration, and have judges and pick from there. Most of us could walk around a pit area and point out which robots are "good", so let's just skip the formalities (/sarcasm).

I would counter that the serpentine draft, strength of schedule, and the crazy things that happen during competitive matches, open up the opportunity for surprises. Teams that don't usually qualify could catch a lucky break and upset a powerhouse. That's a great narrative, and it's part of why sports are so compelling.

Don't get me wrong, I like the district point system, and I'm OK with the idea of regional wildcards extending beyond the finalist alliance. But I also don't think we should be too worried about who "deserves" to go to champs or not. The excitement is in the uncertainty!

[asid61]

Originally Posted by Boe

I personally have never been a fan of the waitlist system and have talked to teams who got in based on the waitlist and say they don't think they deserve to be competing at the championship.

As a student on a team who got in on waitlist last year, I have to disagree. Had we not gotten in on the waitlist, I doubt my team would even have gotten the chance to make it to champs. For me personally, it was touched me deeply to be in such a huge stadium with other kids interested in STEM like me, and for many students I think experience is very valuable. Without the waitlist (or the future double champs) many teams wouldn't get that chance.

[District2Region]

As a district-to-regional transplant, I've been compiling my thoughts on the matter into a proposal for using District Points to award wildcards. I have attached it, feel free to give it a read and tell me what you think.

[logank013]

Originally Posted by District2Region

As a district-to-regional transplant, I've been compiling my thoughts on the matter into a proposal for using District Points to award wildcards. I have attached it, feel free to give it a read and tell me what you think.

I like that a lot. It basically says exactly what I want and adds some more. I'm glad to said something about district teams qualifying at a regional. I feel like 6 spots should be given to regional teams no matter what. It seems to be a lose lose situation when a district team wins a regional. The district loses one of its "next-in" spots and regionals get to send 1 less regional team.

[bdaroz]

I kinda like this idea as well....

I think the goal you're trying to achieve is to send the best teams to worlds, which I agree with. Clearly the winning alliance gets their ticket punched, but I do think the opposing alliance should be first to get their ticket punched with wildcard slots.

At NY Tech Valley Regional the entire finalist alliance got wildcard slots (or pre-qualified). Now if there were wildcards left unused, I think there needs to be a way to disseminate them to other teams. For the cost/expense of a regional, to leave golden tickets behind is reprehensible, IMHO.

The other idea worth floating is, to let the judges determine who gets the extra wildcards. FIRST is not all about the robot, and perhaps this would allow them the opportunity to reward a team for their off-field performance as well (eg, RAS, etc).

[Philip Arola]

I get what you're saying, and I agree with you in spirit. A problem, however, is that you are missing the entire point of the wildcard system as FRC implements it.
The point is that teams that are not the annual juggernauts are still able to go eventually. Remember, Worlds is a lot more than just the robots.
Like it or not, this is why it is like it is.

[lethc]

Originally Posted by Philip Arola

I get what you're saying, and I agree with you in spirit. A problem, however, is that you are missing the entire point of the wildcard system as FRC implements it.
The point is that teams that are not the annual juggernauts are still able to go eventually. Remember, Worlds is a lot more than just the robots.
Like it or not, this is why it is like it is.

100% agreed. Champs isn't just about bringing the best robots together to compete. Sure, that's part of it, but the biggest draw of championships is the ability to see the great things that other teams have done, get inspired, and then take and apply them to your own team.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by Philip Arola

I get what you're saying, and I agree with you in spirit. A problem, however, is that you are missing the entire point of the wildcard system as FRC implements it.
The point is that teams that are not the annual juggernauts are still able to go eventually. Remember, Worlds is a lot more than just the robots.
Like it or not, this is why it is like it is.

Definitely this. I'd like to remind everyone in the thread that the reason FIRST is moving to two Champs is because HQ wants to get more teams to a Champs experience. Specifically, they want every team to have a reasonable chance of getting to Champs every four years or so, whether through qualifying or waitlisting. You're not going to turn every avenue to Champs absolutely merit-based without first changing that mindset. Which first means you're going to have to convince a lot of people that Champs is only for truly worthy robots.

[logank013]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Definitely this. I'd like to remind everyone in the thread that the reason FIRST is moving to two Champs is because HQ wants to get more teams to a Champs experience. Specifically, they want every team to have a reasonable chance of getting to Champs every four years or so, whether through qualifying or waitlisting. You're not going to turn every avenue to Champs absolutely merit-based without first changing that mindset. Which first means you're going to have to convince a lot of people that Champs is only for truly worthy robots.

With going to two champs and adding 200 teams, where will those 200 teams come from? Are all 200 from waitlist? Will we have 7 spot regionals? Idk. We can still make the wildcard spots more competitive. I don't think any of us are trying to eliminate the wait list. That's is a really cool and good thing. What if they had 100 mandatory waitlist spots out of the 800 spots in 2017? I'm not sure if people would be for that but I'm curious to see where the other 200 teams will qualify in 2017.

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Specifically, they want every team to have a reasonable chance of getting to Champs every four years or so, whether through qualifying or waitlisting.

As FIRST keeps growing, doesn't this become more and more unsustainable?

[Karthik]

Originally Posted by Knufire

As FIRST keeps growing, doesn't this become more and more unsustainable?

Not if they keep adding more Championships.

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Not if they keep adding more Super Regionals

Fixed that for you.


Headquarters might call them Championships, but lets be real they are super regionals.

[Richard Wallace]

Originally Posted by Karthik

Not if they keep adding more Championships.

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

Headquarters might call them Championships, but lets be real they are super regionals.

As W.S. Gilbert said, "If everybody's somebody, then no-one's anybody." It's all good -- let us have more inspiration by creating more Champions. Those who wish can go to IRI and sort it all out.

[jds2001]

Originally Posted by EricLeifermann

Fixed that for you.


Headquarters might call them Championships, but lets be real they are super regionals.

I really believe that split champs is a means to an end to get to super regionals (and thus an additional level of play). I could be wrong, but that's honestly what I believe. The program does not yet have the scale to support that, however the current system was unsustainable as well. Something had to be done, and split champs was the "least bad" option.

[rich2202]

How about:

1) the two alliances that lost to the finalists have a one match playoff for the wild card slots.
2) the 6 finalists vote for teams to get the wildcard slots.