If YOU were the GDC...

[MikLast]

Originally Posted by s_forbes

MCs should have been required to wear medieval apparel and complete a course in either juggling or fire-breathing.

Everything else was pretty great.

PNW has you covered

[Duncan Macdonald]

Not specific to Stronghold but I'd allow playoff alliances to have the option of choosing which team they would like in each driver's station for sight-line reasons.

This should a be relatively trivial addition since championship alliances can already choose which teams they use on a match by match basis.

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by IKE

DOGMA...

I like the warning, but please no automated penalties....

I think it was called DAWGMA.

Originally Posted by wazateer1

Also, I would have removed the brattice. I don't know about anyone elses experience, but I haven't seen it used once.

Originally Posted by Hitchhiker 42

195 at the Hartford District event used it. I'm not sure why, but it was really interesting seeing them pick up from something not many have done. Maybe for proof of concept?

They used it because their intake mechanism was damaged.
This was the only way that they could still load boulders into their Robot.
They said that they had used this workaround before.
As I noted in my GA commentary, I had never seen it used before. I referred to the Brattice as the Litter (noodle) Chute of 2016. Rarely used, but in a pinch....

Originally Posted by Duncan Macdonald

Not specific to Stronghold but I'd allow elimination alliances to have the option of choosing which team they would like in each driver's station for sight-line reasons.

It's Playoffs, not Elims, or Eliminations.
Also, it's Worlds or the CMP, not Nationals.
(Sorry, just something that my OCD has issues with)

[Josh Fox]

Originally Posted by MooreteP

I think it was called DAWGMA.

DOGMA - "Delay of Game Management Algorithm"

Thanks to team 604 for hosting the 2010 game manual.

[MooreteP]

Originally Posted by Josh Fox

DOGMA - "Delay of Game Management Algorithm"

Sorry, confused by Lil Lavery. :-)

[Road Rash]

This being the first game I've been exposed to, I wouldn't change a thing. That being said, I like reading the opinions in this thread.

[Lil' Lavery]

Some of this will be rehased from Chris is Me, Andy A, and a couple other brilliant posters in this thread, but I feel like adding my reasoning to a couple of these points.

1. Make the Sally Port and Drawbridge semi-transparent
I know the "wood" aesthetic was part of the game's aesthetic, and that the vision challenges are technically interesting. However, I feel the consequences outweigh the benefits. Seeing drive teams miss balls, commit fouls, and general struggle across blind spots does not make for a great spectator experience. Further still, it makes the referees' job harder in determining crossings. A visual design similar to the Portcullis would have been sufficient in conveying the medieval theme, while also allowing enough vision not to hamper the game.

2. Make the batter dividers semi-visible
Ironically, the batter dividers are quite the opposite of the sally port and drawbridge. If they had a colored edge or other means of identifying their position, it would have greatly assisted drive teams without any real consequence elsewhere.

3. Add a dedicated scorekeeper
While this isn't strictly a GDC issue, it does tie in. Refs shouldn't have to pull double duty as scorekeepers

4. Clarify the secret passage rules
I wouldn't necessarily change anything about the actual functionality regarding the secret passage, but raise your hand if you understood how the secret passage functioned the first time you read the game manual. How about the second time? It took most everyone a while, and there were plenty of teams that didn't really understand its function at the events (particularly when it comes to passing balls in and out of each passage). I believe I saw a suggestion during build season to change the portion of the secret passage that touches the neutral zone to "secret entrance." A change similar to that could have provided additional clarity.

5. Change the game from "tower defense" to "tower assault"
Once again, a semantic change to the rules that would have provided a lot of clarity regarding FMS graphics, whos courtyard is whos, etc.

6. Have the breach/capture serve as tie-breakers during qualifications.
In the case of a tie, if one alliance garnered a breach or capture while the other alliance did not, that alliance is named the winner. It's only a tie if both alliances had the same amount of additional ranking points.

7. Allow the referees to keep notes on matches/allow announcers to relay which penalties were committed
This was the most infuriating and confusing change on the year. I honestly don't understand it at all.


And now for some weird ideas to try at your off-season (FMS permitting):

1. Allow alliances to opt not to place a defense in a location, in exchange for additional tower strength on their tower. Any defense skipped already counts as damaged (both for point and breach purposes). Replace the missing defense with a flat panel* to prevent damage to the outerworks.

*Or the low bar panel without the low bar inserted

2. Add in 2 "flaming boulders" (orange balls) to the center of the field at the beginning of the match. These boulders are either worth 5 points each time they're score, and/or end up doing 2 damage to the tower they're scored in.

3. Add in a "hot goal" in autonomous (basically like 2014). Allow the low goal to be hot for extra fun.

Originally Posted by MooreteP

I think it was called DAWGMA.

I'll have you know that 1712 never once committed a DOGMA penalty, TYVM.

[Mitchell1714]

Stronghold has been a very good game, but there are some tweaks I would make.

1. The scoring bar at the bottom quarter of the match feed should have been done differently. They should have had team numbers, score, defenses that alliance has breached and damage they have done to their opponents tower all on the same side. It was confusing and counter-intuitive to see red teams and red score on one side, and red defense/boulder count on the other.

2. (Spoiler, reading, fairly complicated change to game-play)

During just the playoffs, there should have been 2 new defenses available for selection: the "field" and the "keep".

What are they?

The "field" as it's name suggests is just a green flat surface robots drive across. Robots cannot damage the "field" and receive no points or contribution to a breach for crossing the "field" in both auto and teleop. The "keep" in historical terms, is the fortified central tower of a castle and last defensive resort. The "keep" in FRC Stronghold is a tall tower defense, place in the outer works, that is illegal to cross.

How do these two defenses work?

After each alliance has placed all their defenses, and before robots are placed on the field, each alliance then gets to place either a "field" for them to cross, or a "keep" to slow down the opposing alliance. Each alliance can place a "field" or "keep" on any defense except another "keep", "field" or low bar. There can be BOTH a "keep" and a "field" in the same outer works. If this happens, that alliance will only be able to damage 3 defenses, and will NOT have the possibility of scoring the Breach bonus(20pts). The red alliance gets to place first, then blue.

Why do I think it's a good idea?

One word, STRATEGY! This would make Stronghold playoffs the most strategically deep game in a while. This would affect many parts of the game:

A. Selecting defenses- Game theory now comes into play more as you have to guess if the other alliance is going to help themselves or slow you. The red alliance has the advantage of placing their "field/keep" anywhere and potentially blocking the other alliance from putting the opposite defense in that spot. High seeded red alliances must also determine if faster crossing is worth the possibility of no breach. Blue has the advantage of knowing what and where the red alliance placed their "field/keep" and countering, either as offense or defense.

B. Auto- The "field" increases an alliances auto possibilities. 2-ball autos and 2-ball-not-low-bar autos would be much more common. It also increases the chance of an alliance doing a double 2-ball auto. The "keep" hinders your opponents auto possibilities. A "keep" can be used to replace easily crossed defenses. It can be used to force opposing alliance robots to line up next to each other and risk messing up a 20 point auto. More importantly, the "keep" can force 1 of the 3 opposing bots to cross an active defense.

C. Teleop- The quick crossing of the "field" to increase shot count is huge. Two top tier shooters and alliances of 3 pretty good shooters could gain a big advantage. I could see some 1 and 2 alliances picking it even though the opponent could give them a "keep" and ruling out the possibility of the breach bonus. Top shooting alliances could more than make up for the 20 point breech deficit by shooting more boulders in auto and more cycles in teleop.

D. Endgame- The only way this affects endgame is the "field" can make last second rushes to the batter faster.

I know its kind of a complicated idea, thoughts, comments?

[Joe Johnson]

Originally Posted by Mitchell1714

Stronghold has been a very good game, but there are some tweaks I would make.

1. The scoring bar at the bottom quarter of the match feed should have been done differently. They should have had team numbers, score, defenses that alliance has breached and damage they have done to their opponents tower all on the same side. It was confusing and counter-intuitive to see red teams and red score on one side, and red defense/boulder count on the other.

2. (Spoiler, reading, fairly complicated change to game-play)

During just the playoffs, there should have been 2 new defenses available for selection: the "field" and the "keep".

What are they?

The "field" as it's name suggests is just a green flat surface robots drive across. Robots cannot damage the "field" and receive no points or contribution to a breach for crossing the "field" in both auto and teleop. The "keep" in historical terms, is the fortified central tower of a castle and last defensive resort. The "keep" in FRC Stronghold is a tall tower defense, place in the outer works, that is illegal to cross.

How do these two defenses work?

After each alliance has placed all their defenses, and before robots are placed on the field, each alliance then gets to place either a "field" for them to cross, or a "keep" to slow down the opposing alliance. Each alliance can place a "field" or "keep" on any defense except another "keep", "field" or low bar. There can be BOTH a "keep" and a "field" in the same outer works. If this happens, that alliance will only be able to damage 3 defenses, and will NOT have the possibility of scoring the Breach bonus(20pts). The red alliance gets to place first, then blue.

Why do I think it's a good idea?

One word, STRATEGY! This would make Stronghold playoffs the most strategically deep game in a while. This would affect many parts of the game:

A. Selecting defenses- Game theory now comes into play more as you have to guess if the other alliance is going to help themselves or slow you. The red alliance has the advantage of placing their "field/keep" anywhere and potentially blocking the other alliance from putting the opposite defense in that spot. High seeded red alliances must also determine if faster crossing is worth the possibility of no breach. Blue has the advantage of knowing what and where the red alliance placed their "field/keep" and countering, either as offense or defense.

B. Auto- The "field" increases an alliances auto possibilities. 2-ball autos and 2-ball-not-low-bar autos would be much more common. It also increases the chance of an alliance doing a double 2-ball auto. The "keep" hinders your opponents auto possibilities. A "keep" can be used to replace easily crossed defenses. It can be used to force opposing alliance robots to line up next to each other and risk messing up a 20 point auto. More importantly, the "keep" can force 1 of the 3 opposing bots to cross an active defense.

C. Teleop- The quick crossing of the "field" to increase shot count is huge. Two top tier shooters and alliances of 3 pretty good shooters could gain a big advantage. I could see some 1 and 2 alliances picking it even though the opponent could give them a "keep" and ruling out the possibility of the breach bonus. Top shooting alliances could more than make up for the 20 point breech deficit by shooting more boulders in auto and more cycles in teleop.

D. Endgame- The only way this affects endgame is the "field" can make last second rushes to the batter faster.

I know its kind of a complicated idea, thoughts, comments?

In theory, I like the game theory addition but I think in practice it has significant drawbacks.

First, it adds to the complexity of an already pretty complex to explain game (GeeToo's 50 word explanation above not withstanding).

Second, it adds to the fun for super fans but doesn't confuses the snot out of the causual fan (explain again why does that team get a free pass and also an impregnable defense?).

Third, if you don't actually set up the defenses and then then change them to Fields and Keeps after the fact, the strategy is pretty much going to be lost on anyone but the drive teams of those involved, but if you do that, an already crazy cycle time gets even longer.

Finally, I am worried how things work in practice. Have we opened up a hole that lets folks break the game by enabling strategy that wins every time.

But... ...I wouldn't mind trying this out at an afterglow competition if one of them decided that they wanted give it a go.

Nice post.

Dr. Joe J.

[Hitchhiker 42]

Originally Posted by ConnorTheCoch

We all know that if we were the GDC, we'd have had a water game by now. Don't tease us FIRST.

The moat is the closest we've gotten.

[3072Cap]

Be able to shoot from the neutral zone.

[EricH]

Reverse the opening side of the Sally Port. As in, instead of the hinge being on the attacker's left, put it on the attacker's right.

Any refs out there know how hard that door is to see a crossing on if you're on the outerworks position...

[jajabinx124]

Originally Posted by 3072Cap

Be able to shoot from the neutral zone.

Full court shooting from your own secret passage. I mean.. that's what the brattice is for right?

[TheBoulderite]

I would create the game so that one of the field volunteers must don a dragon costume and run around on the field during the match. In order to slay the dragon, alliances must hit the dragon with a boulder eight times. They can cooperate to do so. After the eighth boulder, the dragon must fall down on the field and the alliances must race to drive to the fallen dragon and play defense to prevent the other alliance from taking the dragon. At the end of the match, whichever alliance is closer to the dragon will receive either 4 RPs in qualifications or 50 points in eliminations.

[gafftron]

Originally Posted by Duncan Macdonald

Not specific to Stronghold but I'd allow playoff alliances to have the option of choosing which team they would like in each driver's station for sight-line reasons.

This should a be relatively trivial addition since championship alliances can already choose which teams they use on a match by match basis.

This was the case in 2014 so I'm surprised that they have removed that ability.