FRC rules around seating need to change.

[Sperkowsky]

I was prompted to write this post after a few bad experiences and a few interesting reads here.

We should start off this post with a blurb from the Admin Manual specifically 4.12
4.12 Bleacher Rules

Sitting together in a group during competition matches makes the game more exciting and fun. It’s whereyou can show support for your team. Since
very often there is not enough seating to accommodate
everyone, there has to be a policy regarding seating. Teams are not permitted to save seats for team members that are not present. In addition, it is not permitted to hang banners or ribbons to designateseating. Event staff will remove and discard any banners, roping, etc., used to designate seating. Please taketurns sitting in the bleachers if seating is limited. If there is a crowding problem, we ask that you kindly leave after your team’s match and return later if possible.

The rule is simple. Saving seats is not allowed.

However, this rule is consistently broken by the majority of teams in FRC. In fact many people are ignorant to the fact that this rule exists.

Cue my experience this past weekend at champs.

After volunteering for 4 days straight doing field reset our field (Newton) was not chosen to reset Einstein. It was disappointing but, we got to watch great finals matches and I proceeded after cleaning up the field a bit to find Einstein seating. Being I only needed 2 seats one for my mom and one for me I figured this should not be too big of a problem. I found 2 of the best seats that were not going to be reserved for teams on Einstein and sat in one knowing the rules well I did not put anything there to reserve the seat and I proceeded to text my mom to come by. However, right then I got stormed by a team whose seats I apparently "Stole." For reference this team was taking up 6 rows of seating in the lower level of the dome with many many empty seats. I explained calmly that the seats were empty allowing me to sit in them which they did not take kindly to. I was screamed at, called names, and felt physically in danger when a student jumped over a seat to sit next to me. Taking what I explained to hopefully be my mom's seat. I ended up leaving the seats in favor of worse ones next to a team that would not irritate me for the entire night. Worse seat better people.

However, I have seen situations like this way to often. Coming from a small team we only have 5-10 people in the stands. Often we are high up in the stands and despite their frantic screaming you can not even hear them. Our second year our team decided to go for the spirit award bringing family friends, school administrators ect. They got to the venue earlier then everyone else and rushed to sit. A larger team then came up to them telling them those seats were reserved since they sit there every year. Our team not knowing the rules got up and let them sit there.

People generally feel very entitled to save seats. Despite the fact that its clearly not allowed per the admin manual.

So, we need to figure out some solutions. Factoring things like scouting, large teams vs small teams, and spirit into the equation.

My proposal goes something like this. Everyone gets 7 reserved seats for scouting towards the front. There are then 2 rows of seats for spectators only not affiliated with teams directly and then another good section of seating reserved for volunteers. Teams will then have to find their own seating towards the top again not being allowed to save seats. If a team has an issue where a team will not give up saved seats they should have some way to report the situation and cause some sort of repercussion.

But I know my solution is not even close to perfect. So lets figure this out.

[araniaraniratul]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I was prompted to write this post after a few bad experiences and a few interesting reads here.

We should start off this post with a blurb from the Admin Manual specifically 4.12
4.12 Bleacher Rules

Sitting together in a group during competition matches makes the game more exciting and fun. It’s whereyou can show support for your team. Since
very often there is not enough seating to accommodate
everyone, there has to be a policy regarding seating. Teams are not permitted to save seats for team members that are not present. In addition, it is not permitted to hang banners or ribbons to designateseating. Event staff will remove and discard any banners, roping, etc., used to designate seating. Please taketurns sitting in the bleachers if seating is limited. If there is a crowding problem, we ask that you kindly leave after your team’s match and return later if possible.

The rule is simple. Saving seats is not allowed.

However, this rule is consistently broken by the majority of teams in FRC. In fact many people are ignorant to the fact that this rule exists.

Cue my experience this past weekend at champs.

After volunteering for 4 days straight doing field reset our field (Newton) was not chosen to reset Einstein. It was disappointing but, we got to watch great finals matches and I proceeded after cleaning up the field a bit to find Einstein seating. Being I only needed 2 seats one for my mom and one for me I figured this should not be too big of a problem. I found 2 of the best seats that were not going to be reserved for teams on Einstein and sat in one knowing the rules well I did not put anything there to reserve the seat and I proceeded to text my mom to come by. However, right then I got stormed by a team whose seats I apparently "Stole." For reference this team was taking up 6 rows of seating in the lower level of the dome with many many empty seats. I explained calmly that the seats were empty allowing me to sit in them which they did not take kindly to. I was screamed at, called names, and felt physically in danger when a student jumped over a seat to sit next to me. Taking what I explained to hopefully be my mom's seat. I ended up leaving the seats in favor of worse ones next to a team that would not irritate me for the entire night. Worse seat better people.

However, I have seen situations like this way to often. Coming from a small team we only have 5-10 people in the stands. Often we are high up in the stands and despite their frantic screaming you can not even hear them. Our second year our team decided to go for the spirit award bringing family friends, school administrators ect. They got to the venue earlier then everyone else and rushed to sit. A larger team then came up to them telling them those seats were reserved since they sit there every year. Our team not knowing the rules got up and let them sit there.

People generally feel very entitled to save seats. Despite the fact that its clearly not allowed per the admin manual.

So, we need to figure out some solutions. Factoring things like scouting, large teams vs small teams, and spirit into the equation.

My proposal goes something like this. Everyone gets 7 reserved seats for scouting towards the front. There are then 2 rows of seats for spectators only not affiliated with teams directly and then another good section of seating reserved for volunteers. Teams will then have to find their own seating towards the top again not being allowed to save seats. If a team has an issue where a team will not give up saved seats they should have some way to report the situation and cause some sort of repercussion.

But I know my solution is not even close to perfect. So lets figure this out.

It's an interesting solution, I haven't done the math so can't really swing either way. Yet, It's really shocking that people aren't aware of that rule in the handbook (had to remind people multiple times), and I think FIRST could really make a point by establishing some sort of penalty or better staff enforcement and awareness of the rule. I'd like to think people are good and are just a bit unaware, but you never really know.

[216Robochick288]

As someone who did scouting I would be very sad about a seat so far down, it makes it hard to see everything that goes on. I will also say that having reserved seats up front for some people would disintegrate, as some teams dont have scouters, some dont have that many, etc happen, making students go "I wanna sit by someone and look, a free spot!" and take it. I can also tell you with grand certainty that students love to rip down signs about where they can and cannot be (ie, under stairs, back hallways, etc) and without extra hands to police them can be an awful pain.

Realistically, until FIRST sets a president to say "Saving seats means we save the award you get for a team that follows the rules",the best solution is to simply show the team in question the rules, and if a problem occurs to contact event staff. I know some event coordinators will go through at the end of the night and make a "dont save seats" bin, if it looks like they have left "spirit" shakers, coats, etc to save seats. They earn it back when they have a coach come talk to them so they can be explained that seat saving is directly against the rules.

[spydan]

Would T6 enable event staff to issue Red/Yellow cards to teams for seat saving? Has this ever happened at an event?

T6: "All Teams must be civil towards their own Team members, other Teams, competition personnel,
FIELD staff, and event attendees while at an FIRST Robotics Competition event.
Violation: Behavior will be discussed with Team or individual. Violations of this rule are likely
to escalate to YELLOW or RED CARDS rapidly (i.e. the threshold for egregious or repeated
violations is relatively low.)"

[Montavo]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

However, this rule is consistently broken by the majority of teams in FRC. In fact many people are ignorant to the fact that this rule exists.

Originally Posted by araniaraniratul

FIRST could really make a point by establishing some sort of penalty or better staff enforcement and awareness of the rule.

There has not been a regional I've attended that doesn't have people saving seats, seeing reserved seats sometimes raises the urge for me to tell others if they know about the reserved seats rule but I simply don't want to be "that guy" and start preaching about the rules. People are these events to have fun and compete; As Ron mentioned, FIRST does need to have better enforcement and awareness of the rule.

[Bluman56]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

I was prompted to write this post after a few bad experiences and a few interesting reads here.

We should start off this post with a blurb from the Admin Manual specifically 4.12
4.12 Bleacher Rules

Sitting together in a group during competition matches makes the game more exciting and fun. It’s whereyou can show support for your team. Since
very often there is not enough seating to accommodate
everyone, there has to be a policy regarding seating. Teams are not permitted to save seats for team members that are not present. In addition, it is not permitted to hang banners or ribbons to designateseating. Event staff will remove and discard any banners, roping, etc., used to designate seating. Please taketurns sitting in the bleachers if seating is limited. If there is a crowding problem, we ask that you kindly leave after your team’s match and return later if possible.

The rule is simple. Saving seats is not allowed.

However, this rule is consistently broken by the majority of teams in FRC. In fact many people are ignorant to the fact that this rule exists.

Cue my experience this past weekend at champs.

After volunteering for 4 days straight doing field reset our field (Newton) was not chosen to reset Einstein. It was disappointing but, we got to watch great finals matches and I proceeded after cleaning up the field a bit to find Einstein seating. Being I only needed 2 seats one for my mom and one for me I figured this should not be too big of a problem. I found 2 of the best seats that were not going to be reserved for teams on Einstein and sat in one knowing the rules well I did not put anything there to reserve the seat and I proceeded to text my mom to come by. However, right then I got stormed by a team whose seats I apparently "Stole." For reference this team was taking up 6 rows of seating in the lower level of the dome with many many empty seats. I explained calmly that the seats were empty allowing me to sit in them which they did not take kindly to. I was screamed at, called names, and felt physically in danger when a student jumped over a seat to sit next to me. Taking what I explained to hopefully be my mom's seat. I ended up leaving the seats in favor of worse ones next to a team that would not irritate me for the entire night. Worse seat better people.

However, I have seen situations like this way to often. Coming from a small team we only have 5-10 people in the stands. Often we are high up in the stands and despite their frantic screaming you can not even hear them. Our second year our team decided to go for the spirit award bringing family friends, school administrators ect. They got to the venue earlier then everyone else and rushed to sit. A larger team then came up to them telling them those seats were reserved since they sit there every year. Our team not knowing the rules got up and let them sit there.

People generally feel very entitled to save seats. Despite the fact that its clearly not allowed per the admin manual.

So, we need to figure out some solutions. Factoring things like scouting, large teams vs small teams, and spirit into the equation.

My proposal goes something like this. Everyone gets 7 reserved seats for scouting towards the front. There are then 2 rows of seats for spectators only not affiliated with teams directly and then another good section of seating reserved for volunteers. Teams will then have to find their own seating towards the top again not being allowed to save seats. If a team has an issue where a team will not give up saved seats they should have some way to report the situation and cause some sort of repercussion.

But I know my solution is not even close to perfect. So lets figure this out.

Sam, I know exactly what you're talking about and agree 100%. Funny enough, I was with a friend just as a spectator and ended up sitting right behind you and your mom (creepiness not intended, sorry for not introducing myself) during the entirety of Einstein. The whole weekend finding seats was a struggle. Even top tier teams (identity will remain disclosed for obvious reasons) were extremely hostile. You could clearly tell I just wanted to watch matches as I was wearing a FIRST Alum badge and had no team affiliated attire the whole time.

It's extremely off-putting and I am someone who is very invested in FIRST. I can only imagine how terrible the experience may be to someone who is just walking in to learn and watch FIRST in action. I don't mean to be preaching to the choir, I just wanted to point out this was not an isolated occurrence. I had to deal with this all week/end long.

[GBK]

Not only is saving seats a problem but teams standing up during matches is a problem. In some cases the entire teams stands during their match, in others someone from the team always seems to need to get up for some reason during the match causing the entire row of team to stand and let them out.
Makes it kind hard on scouting.
At any rate if you are at an event we are at, we will gladly make room for you to sit if we have it. Keep in mind we normally sit in the nose bleed seats so we don't have to fight for them. We might also put you to work scouting!

[Chief Hedgehog]

Originally Posted by GBK

Not only is saving seats a problem but teams standing up during matches is a problem. In some cases the entire teams stands during their match

Since you were on Carson, you didn't have this problem with 4607... But yes, our team gets up and screams like crazy for our team. We have a cheer squad and a cheer captain - and have 8 different cheers we use throughout the event. 4607 can be quite obnoxious - we know this. We use our shields, light sabers, flags, and anything we can get our hands on and wave them like crazy. Funny thing is, we look at this like a sporting event and our team/fans have been well conditioned by our football games (Back to Back State Champs!). We go nuts for our squad - and we won't change this for the foreseeable future. That and we bring down a lot of people.

But we are fun and bring in those around us. We cheer for those teams we are allied with and have never had a complaint.

I coach them throughout the season that there are no saved seats and we have not yet had a problem.

As for scouting, if your scouts are in the lower rows, they will have a tough time scouting the field.

[Gamma +]

As much as I despise conversations like these, I must comment on the issue. I was disgusted at how abrasive and inconsiderate teams were in the stands at champs. As an individual trying to float around the dome, watching as many matches on different divisions as possible, I rarely sat in one seat for more than a single match, and I didn't have the luxury of showing up early and claiming a single seat. It was strange to me that teams were so reluctant to let a single, polite robot enthusiast temporarily use vacant seats that would be left empty otherwise. On top of that, it startled me to see how hostile teams were towards each other. In subdivision playoffs, I observed a team that had just lost their match stand up and yell awful things at another team that was cheering for the winning alliance. The cheering team was in fact, not from the same division, and they were simply congratulating their friends- completely harmless, and with no ill intent. It is understandable to be passionate about winning, but it is absolutely ridiculous to yell and shout at supporters of the winning alliance. This is neither gracious nor professional. That being said, I am very grateful to the people who did have reserved seats that were gracious enough to share them with me.

[jnicho15]

I think there is a point that is acceptable. For example, I see no problem saving a few seats in the 400s at Einstein for the people in the pit packing the crate. However, some teams do go too far.

[GBK]

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

Since you were on Carson, you didn't have this problem with 4607... But yes, our team gets up and screams like crazy for our team. We have a cheer squad and a cheer captain - and have 8 different cheers we use throughout the event. 4607 can be quite obnoxious - we know this. We use our shields, light sabers, flags, and anything we can get our hands on and wave them like crazy. Funny thing is, we look at this like a sporting event and our team/fans have been well conditioned by our football games (Back to Back State Champs!). We go nuts for our squad - and we won't change this for the foreseeable future. That and we bring down a lot of people.

But we are fun and bring in those around us. We cheer for those teams we are allied with and have never had a complaint.

I coach them throughout the season that there are no saved seats and we have not yet had a problem.

As for scouting, if your scouts are in the lower rows, they will have a tough time scouting the field.

The seats sectioned off at Championship for teams that were on the field were great for watching matches. Not all venues do that or have the ability to do that. The issues we encountered were higher in the stands as well as at district events. Your team sounds like a lot of fun. I would rather see a team having that kind of enthusiasm than a team with its members sleeping in the stands or playing games. Keep up the good work. The bottom line is everyone is there for the same reason. We all want to see matches. Considering those around you is part of gracious professionalism

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

My proposal goes something like this. Everyone gets 7 reserved seats for scouting towards the front. There are then 2 rows of seats for spectators only not affiliated with teams directly and then another good section of seating reserved for volunteers. Teams will then have to find their own seating towards the top again not being allowed to save seats. If a team has an issue where a team will not give up saved seats they should have some way to report the situation and cause some sort of repercussion.

But I know my solution is not even close to perfect. So lets figure this out.

Not all teams scout, unfortunately.
Some teams want room for 8 people, some only need/can spare 2 or 3.
There should be some neutral way to handle negative behavior at all aspects of a competition. Sports events allow attendees to notify event personnel of uncivil behavior.

The solution to getting the seats you want together as a team is pretty simple. Show up early and show up together. You don't have to beat 148 to the venue to get great seats together as a team, but you have to decide whether or not it's worth it.

[AlexanderTheOK]

Side note regarding people standing up:

It seems people standing in the walkway at champs didn't understand they were blocking several of the middle seats. People come by and decide to watch, making the three rows slightly above the main walkway difficult to see anything in without standing yourself.

It seems like it could be an issue caused by arena design, but it was rather irritating to constantly have to go tell people in the walkway to take a seat.

[DonRotolo]

True story: 3 or 4 years ago in STL, when we played out in the pits and sat on bleachers, seats were at a huge premium. Saturday afternoon, and some guy in his 40s or 50s with a young child in tow is looking up at the bleachers to find a seat. He looked just so lost...

I went down and asked him if he needed a place to sit. He seemed surprised, but said Yes. I ushered him back up and had some team members squish in more to make room. And I helped him (and his 10-ish daughter) understand what was going on, on the field.

Long story short: He was an executive VP of some large company (no names), invited by FIRST to stop by and see what we are doing. He'd just driven in from another state, and it seems I was his first contact with FRC. By the time he'd left, he was going to have his company sponsor "a couple" of teams for several thousand dollars each. He offered for my team, but asked him to consider teams local to his company, and maybe send a couple of engineers there too.

Bottom line: That guy you just intimidated out of "your" seats was thinking of sponsoring you for $5k. Smooth move, Einstein.

[Rangel(kf7fdb)]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Not all teams scout, unfortunately.
Some teams want room for 8 people, some only need/can spare 2 or 3.
There should be some neutral way to handle negative behavior at all aspects of a competition. Sports events allow attendees to notify event personnel of uncivil behavior.

The solution to getting the seats you want together as a team is pretty simple. Show up early and show up together. You don't have to beat 148 to the venue to get great seats together as a team, but you have to decide whether or not it's worth it.

I honestly don't think just coming super early is a final good solution to the problem. This was a similar problem at another robotics competition we compete in called Robosub. Granted people were coming early for first signups on the practice field in this competition but it was getting ridiculous where people were coming hours before the doors opened up. It's really not healthy to cut even like 2 hours a day during the entire course of the competition but teams will still do it to remain competitive. This competition solved it by having a lottery of slots based on which teams were there when doors opened. I think having 8-9 dedicated seats per team for scouting would go a long way in solving this issue.