Quitting FRC for Vex?

[AdamHeard]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

VRC didn't exist in 2004. There was a pilot event at the 2005 FIRST Championship event, and a pilot season in 2005-06. What is now the VEX EDR system was at first a RadioShack exclusive, released sometime after the 2005 pilot event and before the next season.

The edubot kit (which I'm pretty certain was the "protoype" of vex) was available in 2004, and maybe sooner.

[Dunngeon]

Originally Posted by Landonh12

I can see Vex being a good way to start feeder programs for FRC, but in no way do I see Vex replacing FRC. The amount of engineering that goes into FRC completely overshadows any reason to switch to Vex, unless your team has budget problems. I can see FTC teams switching to Vex, simply because they are similar.

My old team is considering a full switch to Vex. Their primary motivation is that they can run 4-6 vex teams for the cost of a single FRC team which gets more of the 40 students involved in the nitty-gritty design. Additionally longer build season allows for a more relaxed pace. No bag and tag rules make it more attractive as well.

I'm not a huge fan of 100% Vex, but it makes sense from some perspectives.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by mrnoble

I've heard rumblings of this for the past several years. My own team is quite happy continuing with FRC, but the other competition we have participated in since 2009 (BEST) will be no longer part of our plan for the coming school year, as we are intending to add Vex teams instead. I am sincerely curious if any other FRC teams are adding Vex, or are thinking about leaving FRC in favor of Vex. If you are and feel that you can share, would you mind saying what your reasons are, both positive (Vex is fun, for instance) and negative (the expense of FRC is too great, perhaps). Thanks.

A few years ago, I spoke to an FRC school team's teacher/headmentor. They were participating in both FRC and VRC. He said he/they were going to drop FRC because:

• VRC made it much easier and cheaper for him to make all of his students members of teams in which every member is expected to make hands-on contributions to their team's STEM product.
• VRC made it possible for all members of a team to be intimately involved in their team's actual performance during competitions.
• In his location it was easy (and relatively cheap) for his several teams to participate in several nearby formal tournaments, off-season tournaments, and scrimmage events.

For his STEM robotics program (that I think was integrated at least semi-formally into his school's curriculum) he was asserting that he got more bang per buck per student, plus a few other upsides.

We agreed that he/they would be giving up on the flashy circus side of FRC tournaments (unless he took his students as spectators). His thoughts about that were that he was more than willing to live with the reduced flashiness of a typical, local VRC tournament, if what he got in exchange was being able to look across the fields and pits, and see all of his students driving or working on robots, instead of sitting in the stands watching a handful of their classmates doing that.

Originally Posted by Landonh12

I can see Vex being a good way to start feeder programs for FRC, but in no way do I see Vex replacing FRC. The amount of engineering that goes into FRC completely overshadows any reason to switch to Vex, unless your team has budget problems. I can see FTC teams switching to Vex, simply because they are similar.

In my (limited) experience the folks who choose VRC over FRC usually aren't very interested in maximizing the complexity of the work a few team members do. They instead usually want to maximize the number of students who get a chance to try their hand at high school level STEM topics.

They focus on giving lots of students a good-enough taste of STEM topics, not on having a smaller number of students dive deeply into one complex problem.

Remember - It's not (supposed to be) about the robot. It's (supposed to be) about getting more students to give STEM a try, and for them to enjoy what happens when they do.

There is a place in the world for both programs. Each serves a purpose, and satisfies a need. There are definitely student who look for tougher (than FTC/VRC) challenges before they graduate high school. If the funds, mentors, and other prerequisites are in place, FRC is a great capstone to put on top of a solid VRC/FTC base.

Blake

[Fusion_Clint]

All the programs have pro's and con's.

This year we had 5 FTC teams and 1 FRC team.

With the FTC change over to android and java this year, it was a real steep learning curve for my new to robotics kids. I am considering starting a VRC team next year for my new kids with zero robotics experience. The plus to VRC is a legit curriculum to help. The minus, is that designing is really limiting, i.e. you can build anything you want as long as you buy the parts from VEX.

I really like the freedom FTC gives the teams to manufacture their own parts 3D print, CNC, welding, whatever means available. The kids learning these skills enable a FTC student to be more productive quicker to an FRC team. The minus is there just isn't very good resources to help teachers.

Both FTC and VEX allow for great iterational improvements, but they also play into high schools students biggest weakness, procrastination.

FRC is best at mentor to student interaction and working under pressure. The students actually get to work with professionals in the career field the student is interested in. To be successful you must have a dedicated group of mentors. You can get the mentors because you are only asking for 6 weeks from most of them. In my opinion FRC is the pentacle of high school robotics. I have seen some amazing VRC and FTC robots, but a top tier FRC robot is a thing of beauty.

The only students I have had that choose VEX or FTC instead of FRC just didn't have the time to dedicate to the team during build season. YMMV

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

... The minus, is that designing is really limiting, i.e. you can build anything you want as long as you buy the parts from VEX. ... YMMV

VRC does allow you to make custom parts, but for various reasons, they limit the type and amount of raw material you can use.

Making one or two crucial custom parts is possible. Making most of the bot from scratch, or from non-VEX COTS isn't possible (although you can cut and bend the stock VEX parts as much as you like).

About some of the other points you made, your "YMMV" ending is exactly right.

The way I like to look at things, just because you aren't forced to do something doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't do it.

Nothing in the VRC (or FTC) program stops mentors from being intensely involved for six weeks, or stops students from developing/using (outside of the explicit competition) some of the other skills you mentioned.

That flexibility to choose between simple and complex either in a single season and/or across seasons can be very liberating.

Blake

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by gblake

Nothing in the VRC (or FTC) program stops mentors from being intensely involved for six weeks, or stops students from developing/using (outside of the explicit competition) some of the other skills you mentioned.
Blake

I agree, but real life plays a factor. Mentors have jobs and lives so the hours they can put in is limited.

Companies are attracted to the big robots. They are willing to let their employees take time to work on something that looks cool on the news and reflects well on the company. You have to have the right mentor and company to get that for FTC and VRC.

At the FTC and VRC level it is left almost entirely to the school teacher who is already overworked and underpaid.

All the programs have a place depending on your program goals and resources.

[Foster]

VEX is very cost effective, for the same $5000 fee I can start 3 VEX teams and take them to two events.

For the cost of the robot ($5000) I can start 3 more VEX teams and take them to two events

For the cost of a second regional, I can send the 6 VEX teams to my local state championship ($500 per team) and send one of them to Worlds ($850)

I can have 30 roboteers for the first year for the same money.

In year two, I can only start 4 more teams, but I'm up to 10 teams and sending 2 to worlds. In year two I'm looking at 50 roboteers 25 active parents

At the FTC and VRC level it is left almost entirely to the school teacher who is already overworked and underpaid.

Which is the road to fail. Look at groups like the Downingtown VEXMen. 38 teams, 200+ roboteers, 70+ parents, 0 teachers. If I ask an adult who cares more about your child, me, you, the teacher, I get the parent. VEX isn't hard to learn I teach parents all the time. Parents can be mentors, you don't need 1000's of hours of experience.
In year three, we are holding our own events (saving 50 per event for 10 teams) and starting 4 more teams. So up to 14 teams, 70 roboteers, 35 active parents.

This year you are "limited" to 1 sheet 12x24 of polycarb. They are looking at letting teams 3D Print.

I don't see a limitation on the parts being a limitation, more of a design constraint. YMMV.

I like to say "Come to the dark side, we have cookies", but in reality, I don't try to take roboteers from FIRST to VEX. I often will send someone to a FLL or FTC team because they are closer or their school supports it. Over 95% of the possible roboteers are not in any program. I'm not going to go grab your pie, there is more pie than any of us could eat untouched.

All the programs have their pros and cons, figure out which one works for you, grab a few 1000 roboteers and GO!

It is not much more effort to run 2-5 teams as it is to run 1. So run more!

[IndySam]

I hate the Vex vs FRC talk. We do both and both are great programs and we will continue to do both. I personally prefer doing FRC.

But the biggest difference between the two are that Vex and Rec Foundation understands who their customers are. FIRST hasn't a clue.

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I hate the Vex vs FRC talk. We do both and both are great programs and we will continue to do both. I personally prefer doing FRC.

But the biggest difference between the two are that Vex and Rec Foundation understands who their customers are. FIRST hasn't a clue.

If anything I have posted has been taken as me promoting one vs the other I apologise. I'm just posting the pluses and minuses (as I see them) of both programs.

It is up to the individual programs to decide what is right for their goals.

[waialua359]

Originally Posted by IndySam

I hate the Vex vs FRC talk. We do both and both are great programs and we will continue to do both. I personally prefer doing FRC.

But the biggest difference between the two are that Vex and Rec Foundation understands who their customers are. FIRST hasn't a clue.

This sums it up perfectly.
Except, I would add that FIRST does have clues, but unwilling in certain areas where they could provide additional support for teams.
The fact that FIRST isnt as scalable as VEX compounds the situation.

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by Foster

VEX is very cost effective, for the same $5000 fee I can start 3 VEX teams and take them to two events.

For the cost of the robot ($5000) I can start 3 more VEX teams and take them to two events

For the cost of a second regional, I can send the 6 VEX teams to my local state championship ($500 per team) and send one of them to Worlds ($850)

I can have 30 roboteers for the first year for the same money.

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.

Please refrain from my program is better than yours type posts; as I have said several times each have pluses and minuses, it is up to each organization to make the decision of which is better for their goals.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.
...

Again, I agree with your earlier "YMMV".

That said, I think it's a mistake (an understandable one, but a mistake nonetheless) to say that any STEM robotics program doesn't allow students to do any and all of the things you listed, or to say that any program limits activities to any particular period of a year.

All the programs I have ever heard about are officially delighted to be just a foundation for doing more than what they explicitly "require" or measure.

The advantage of the simple programs is that you can start small, and then go as far as your imagination and inspiration take you. That is both a blessing and a curse. To a certain extent, you have to supply your own motivation

The advantage of the complex programs is that (if you have your ducks in a row), they "force" you to go far. That is both a blessing and a curse. To a certain extent, a misstep or two can derail an entire season's efforts.

Blake

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.

Please refrain from my program is better than yours type posts; as I have said several times each have pluses and minuses, it is up to each organization to make the decision of which is better for their goals.

I don't think this thread needs to generate into "mine is better" posts. But the thread subject is "quitting FRC for Vex" and reasons why teams might do so, so we will definitely be inviting comparisons between the two and evaluations of what you get for the money in each.

There are not many FRC teams to begin with in my city, and at least one of them has already converted fully to Vex, another has temporarily put their FRC program on hold and continuing with Vex, and another runs an FRC team but also runs Vex teams, and runs the local Vex kickoff and competition events at their school. I hope they'll continue with FRC as well, but if something has to get cut, you can see which it would be.

[jman4747]

As an exercise, what are some specific reasons why you would want to keep your FRC program? Why do you do FRC given the alternatives?

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by jman4747

As an exercise, what are some specific reasons why you would want to keep your FRC program? Why do you do FRC given the alternatives?

1) The University of South Carolina offers scholarships to FRC and FTC participants. It would be a little peculiar for us to be doing an on-campus outreach program that wasn't aligned with that.

2) Our leading sponsors are invested heavily in the FIRST program. Such a radical departure in our program would surely trigger a review of that financial support, and likely the loss of it.

3) Our build space was originally structured for FRC, and we didn't intend to rock the boat by doing a different program. (FTC probably would've been a good fit for us, if we were starting from a clean sheet--but we had five years of FRC legacy on campus from 2815's time on campus.)