Quitting FRC for Vex?

[GreyingJay]

Originally Posted by jman4747

As an exercise, what are some specific reasons why you would want to keep your FRC program? Why do you do FRC given the alternatives?

To answer this question I will refer back to the quote I took from Fusion_Clint:

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

Or an FRC Team can take that same money and inspire at least that many students, but allow students to work in areas they are interested in with mentors from that career field, such as Video, Web Design, CAD, CAM, Machining, Welding, Journalism, Rapid Prototyping, Public Speaking, etc.

and this one:

Originally Posted by gblake

We agreed that he/they would be giving up on the flashy circus side of FRC tournaments (unless he took his students as spectators). His thoughts about that were that he was more than willing to live with the reduced flashiness of a typical, local VRC tournament, if what he got in exchange was being able to look across the fields and pits, and see all of his students driving or working on robots, instead of sitting in the stands watching a handful of their classmates doing that.

The programs give different experiences to the students. I heard someone once say that "FRC is not about robotics. FRC is a life experience that involves robotics". And when I look back on what FRC is doing for the students I work with, I think that "learning to build/program robots" is actually pretty low on the list. Our students are learning more about how to outreach and connect with the community, how to work on teams, how to work on imbalanced teams, how to work under pressure, how to communicate an idea, how to manage their time, how large projects are structured and how each person fits into that. It's much more like how the real world operates.

[Gregor]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

With the FTC change over to android and java this year, it was a real steep learning curve for my new to robotics kids. I am considering starting a VRC team next year for my new kids with zero robotics experience. The plus to VRC is a legit curriculum to help. The minus, is that designing is really limiting, i.e. you can build anything you want as long as you buy the parts from VEX.

Credits

[jman4747]

Originally Posted by Gregor

Credits

Mark off "eliminate bag day"

[JohnFogarty]

Long story short. Aiken County Robotics lost the funding needed and the leadership needed to run a FRC level team. Why they are quitting FTC too actually is somewhat intertwined with this discussion. Vex seems to have very effectively obliterated the opportunities for growth in FTC in SC. It's not necessarily a terrible thing, but a reality in my opinion nonetheless.

Aiken County Robotics did discover that Vex has become huge in SC since it got funded by Palmetto Partners like some 13 odd local events pre-state championship. It still amazes me because FTC still hasn't grown beyond 30 teams and 1 event in SC since maybe 2010?

Vex is now the most cost effective, and successful robotics competition in South Carolina, and soon if not already to be so in the world.

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

Vex is now the most cost effective, and successful robotics competition in South Carolina.

By having several curriculums written and mostly free of charge, VEX has a huge advantage over FTC (which is the real competitor). If FTC teams don't have a really dedicated mentor or students willing to really learn the systems that team is in trouble.

Where any teacher with a little bit of technical ability can teach based on the VEX curriculum and field a successful team.

FTC is missing the boat; they need a legit curriculum asap. From what I have seen a lot of the really successful FTC teams are home schooled. Which is parents and students wanting to learn. If FTC really wants into the public schools they need to help the teachers.

[staplemonx]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

FTC is missing the boat; they need a legit curriculum asap. From what I have seen a lot of the really successful FTC teams are home schooled. Which is parents and students wanting to learn. If FTC really wants into the public schools they need to help the teachers.

Absolutely spot on!!

And it also applies to FRC. FIRST needs to make the value proposition for teachers, schools , and school systems tangible and measurable. Right now FRC and in many instances FTC are just add on activities that take place at the school. VRC is in the classroom, it is on the teachers desks, it makes students earn a grade.

FIRST needs to make teachers lives easier. Right now all it does is ask for teachers to just donate tons of time with no way to get anything back from their leadership in terms of career. I know this is a blanket statement and that many teachers have figured out a way to make money off of the time they put it, but for many, all they get is ata-boys from their principal.

[gblake]

Originally Posted by JohnFogarty

Aiken County Robotics lost the funding needed and the leadership needed to run a FRC level team.

Running a few VRC teams sounds like a beautiful way to grow the infrastructure needed to run a successful FRC team, even if the FRC team perhaps only competes every second or third year to save money (and to save wear and tear on mentors).

[Jalerre]

My school used to do a combination of FTC, Vex, and FRC. FTC and Vex were done in the fall and you had to be on one of FTC or Vex teams to join the FRC team. However, after the 2013 season the school believed that FRC wasn't worth the expense and more students were participating in Vex and FTC than FRC because of the required cost to join the team. They dropped the FRC and FTC teams and started more Vex teams because that was the cheapest option. This forced me to move to a FRC team that was not a part of our school.

[Isonine]

Originally Posted by Fusion_Clint

By having several curriculums written and mostly free of charge, VEX has a huge advantage over FTC (which is the real competitor). If FTC teams don't have a really dedicated mentor or students willing to really learn the systems that team is in trouble.

Where any teacher with a little bit of technical ability can teach based on the VEX curriculum and field a successful team.

FTC is missing the boat; they need a legit curriculum asap. From what I have seen a lot of the really successful FTC teams are home schooled. Which is parents and students wanting to learn. If FTC really wants into the public schools they need to help the teachers.

My FTC team (8375) that was just the Finalist Alliance Captain at worlds is a 9 person high school team where all of our members attend public school. We also have 0 mentors and are 100% student run. Not every decent ftc team is a bunch of homeschooled kids with their parents.

[Fusion_Clint]

Originally Posted by Isonine

My FTC team (8375) that was just the Finalist Alliance Captain at worlds is a 9 person high school team where all of our members attend public school. We also have 0 mentors and are 100% student run. Not every decent ftc team is a bunch of homeschooled kids with their parents.

1. I said a lot of the successful FTC teams are home schooled, not all.
2. No public school is going to allow nine students to work without adult supervision or to travel without an adult. FIRST requires at least two adults for every team. You must have mentors/teachers.
3. I said a team must have a dedicated mentor or students willing to really learn, you must have dedicated students.
4. Pointing out one possible exception does not invalidate anything I said.

[Chief Hedgehog]

Alright, sorry for dragging this back in from the depths of the forum, but I am struggling with a number of teams from my local area (Central MN). PLEASE DO NOT let this devolve into another MN Districts vs Regionals, this is not the place; go here instead.

Two teams in particular are looking at dropping FRC altogether and going VRC because they school admins think it is a better option. In reality, it may be so for some schools, but the two schools in particular have had strong FRC teams in the past. One of these teams reached out to me, and the other lost their lead mentor so the school is looking to shut down FRC.

The main concern I am hearing from these local teams is the lack of a regional in the St Cloud area - the cost of travel is hurting these teams. We are working diligently to bring a FRC Regional to SCSU in 2018, but those that have been involved in a Regional Planning Committee know the hurdles and struggles that are involved.

My concern is this: how do I help these teams argue/present information to maintain a FRC team while the schools continue to look deeper into the issue? I am hoping to provide some solid feedback to these teams that they can present to their local school boards, administrators, etc. I am looking for growth data, alumni feedback, mentor feedback, sponsor feedback, alumni tracking data, gaining sponsors, fundraising ideas, etc.

Just to give a little more background on the 'Minnesota Model', in 2012 the State High School League (MSHSL) which handles almost all of the activities and sports in MN created a sanctioned State Tournament. Along with the push for more STEM opportunities for students, this sanctioned State Tournament provided great interest and firepower for FRC in Minnesota. As schools started teams, they forgot a major part of FIRST - community and sponsor involvement. Now many of these solely 'school-sponsored' teams are finding it hard to commit to the cost of FRC.

It feels that Central MN teams are in a perfect storm. Without state funding (like MI has), and the relatively new VRC organization based out of a local Tech College, VRC is the next best option for schools to jump to so that they can still offer STEM without the cost. Please do not take this as a knock to VRC, it is not (I am in the process of starting at least 2 VRC teams from my classes for 2017-18).

However, after attending VRC competitions and teams, I do realize that there are major differences in the two. FRC operates more as a hard-lined engineering program that can act like a Varsity sport, VRC is more a great club competition (like off-season soccer or basketball) that can offer great STEM opportunities in a scaled down model.

If you have constructive information, please post or PM me.

Thanks,
-Coach Jurek

[Donut]

If you want resources on FRC impact, the FIRST website still has great material even if it is harder to find than in the past.
http://www.firstinspires.org/node/2521
http://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc/impact
http://www.firstinspires.org/about/p...cs_competition

Probably the biggest thing the team that reached out for help can do is get sponsors and mentors. If the school sees they don't have to put in as much effort to run the team they are more likely to support it.

Originally Posted by Chief Hedgehog

...and the other lost their lead mentor so the school is looking to shut down FRC.

I'm going to be honest, if a team loses its lead mentor and is in a position where the school is considering shutting it down, it might be best for them to fold. That may sound harsh, but I will use my current team as an example.

2662 has never been a powerhouse in our region, but they were a decent team that focused more on community involvement than the robot, and were good enough to win a regional in 2011. Their lead coach was a teacher at the school and left after the 2013 season. Most of the team graduated that year as well. What followed was a collapse of the team as they had an awful 2014 season where they were essentially rookies again with a new lead teacher, mostly new students, and minimal mentor carryover. It was bad enough that when I joined in October 2014 they only had 5 students return from the 2014 season and had to get another new lead teacher since the previous lead did not want to go through another season in charge. They were rookies for the second year in a row. I brought enough FIRST experience with me that we were able to keep the team alive for 2015 and in 2016 we stabilized and had a solid year, but this last season is the first real productive season 2662 has had since losing their lead in 2013.

Losing a lead mentor or teacher is hard. If a team has a solid mentor base or student leadership they can step up to fill their shoes and figure out the new leaders to continue on. But if no one can fill that leadership hole and someone is thrown into it who is not prepared, the odds of success are not good. 2662's 2014 season was mostly a waste of our sponsors' money and our lead teacher's sanity, considering how few students were inspired enough to return to FIRST the next year. They would have been much better off doing VRC instead, and likely would have for 2015 if I had not taken over as the lead that year.

It sounds like this team is fairly dependent on their school for financial/mentor support, from your post. It's mid-October already, and if they don't have a solid leader in place now they are probably not going to be successful in FRC this year unless you can air drop in a few experienced mentors that can work with them full time. I'd strongly consider that it may make sense for them to go VRC until they are on solid ground. It is much easier for a student only team or inexperienced teacher led team to have inspiring success in VRC than FRC.

[tjwolter]

Chief Hedgehog..

In terms of your main question, how to pitch this to school administration, you can probably make this argument: "We have a huge inventory of parts and such from past seasons. So we can manage this year with a little less funding. A base kit, a smaller traveling contingent." They might be impressed by short term belt tightening as they have to do it themselves often. Of course this is not a long term strategy and you should be up front with them. Paring the team down to an affordable size denies some students the chance to learn.

Intermediate range, consider inviting some of the admin types to actually attend a FIRST competition. It will be a serious eye opener.

Also, can you wean the Tech School off of Vex and get them on board with FRC? In pseudoretirement I have gone back to school at our local Tech and they are pretty fired up about FRC....

Our teams bumped into each other a little at North Star and I volunteered at Duluth so I know your set up a bit. Our team (Avis Automata 5826) is built on a radically different model. We work off school site. None of our mentors are teachers. We effectively do all of our own fund raising although the school does help with travel costs. We run a leaner budget but figure to be sustainable long term. I won't actually set foot inside the High School this season, but of course we do work collaboratively.

Support for FIRST in our school is sincere but when we ask for anything extra, even zero cost things, it rarely happens. Even asking tech ed and business teachers to suggest a few names for directed recruiting......crickets.

Fortunately we have a long running DIY robotics program in the middle school after school program. It's our farm club. We also run that largely independent of any official help. Works better that way actually...

Tim Wolter

[Chris is me]

It is totally a reasonable option for those teams to do Vex in 2017, and then return to FRC when the local regional pops up again. No harm in a gap year like that. I think I would make some attempt to sell them on the idea of a scaled back FRC season for the year, and if they don't bite, focus on getting them to actively plan to return to FRC in 2018 by fundraising, training, etc. during the Vex year. Maybe they can do just 2017 FRC offseasons this year if MN has enough of those.

There is some danger in burning out teams by having them stick to FRC when they don't really have the money or resources to do so. They can decide it's too much work, or it isn't worth it, if they aren't going into the competition with the right resources and they burn too much of their energy and money into surviving when they could have taken a gap year.

[gblake]

TLDR: In my opinion, without knowing the local motivations and resources, readers can only guess at the right answers to your question. Those answers are roughly as likely to be wrong as they are to be right.

In these situations, I am a fan of trying to ask the right question, before choosing among solutions.

And, to ask the right question(s), you have to know everyone's purpose(s)/goal(s).

Why should an FRC team or VRC team(s) exist at these locations? Why not both? Why either? What do the schools want to accomplish through either program? What do you want to accomplish? What do the existing team members/supporters want to accomplish? Peel the proverbial onions by asking "why?" until you have gotten to the roots of everyone's motivations.

Once the (often diverse) goals/motivations are all well-known and are put into a coherent picture, its *then* time to discuss with the people involved how they can best use the finite student-time, mentor/teacher-time, physical tools, software/computing tools, dollars, parent-time, feeder-programs, floor-space, etc. to accomplish (or consciously de-emphasize) *all* of them.

There are many, many inspiring ways to skin the cat of introducing many students to STEM topics and careers. Find out which seems best for these situations by pulling on the threads, and developing a complete plan/suggestion. Then, your arguments will have some traction and some buy-in.

Blake