F4 - Connect (The new way to get help)

[dirtbikerxz]

Many people have put it well. Simply, I trust my mentors. If i feel they are wrong in something, than I will explain to them why, and If they feel that I am wrong they will patiently explain to me why I am wrong until I get it, and if they realize that they are wrong... than they will say "my bad" and maybe even give me a pat on the back. And regarding the whole oh some mentors are bad and we shouldn't have to deal with them... all I can say is too bad. The mentors are part of the team. Their decision impact the team, just like yours do. If you can't stand the mentors, and you feel like there is nothing you can do to fix the situation, than leave, find another team. But I think that solution is simply not necessary in 99.99999 percent of scenarios.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

If you can't stand the mentors, and you feel like there is nothing you can do to fix the situation, than leave, find another team.

Easier said then done my friend but that's aside from the point.

This service has nothing against mentors especially our own. Some of us however, in the online community its hard to have a voice which is why F4 was created. Connect is a service that really could be mentor run or student run it does not make that much of a difference. The only reason it is only for students is because F4 is all students. Its what sets us apart from the other shows in the FRC community and as we branch out we would like to stick to it.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

The only reason it is only for students is because F4 is all students.

Which is what makes it potentially dangerous. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing about a fellow student having their voice "heard", but that is the point of the weekly live stream (which I genuinely enjoy watching BTW, thanks for doing that). But giving direct advice student to student opens many many potential dangerous outcomes.

[Liam Fay]

Getting advice from all students and only students doesn't quite make sense; mentors are mentors for a reason. If I were taking, say, a chemistry class, if I wanted the best information, I'd ask the person whose trade it is to be able to give me that info: my teacher. It's the same thing with mentors.

[bkahl]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Some of us however, in the online community its hard to have a voice which is why F4 was created.

MAKE your voice heard.

MAKE your voice a voice that people want to hear.

MAKE yourself a well-informed and knowledgeable person in the community that can actively contribute To discussion.

It's something students like yourself have done before, it's what I had to do, and it's what my peers had to do too.

Chief Delphi has been around for almost as long as you've been alive, and since that time, people have been developing their voice on the board. It takes time, and it won't just happen over the course of a season or two. If you work on HOW you post to the boards, and making sure posts are full of relevant content, and contribute to the thread, you will develop a voice. If you blindly post and quickly realize you have thousands of posts to the forums, many of which are things that likely could have gone unsaid (something I am actually closely quoting you on), a grave difficulty in developing this 'Voice' will come about.

It comes down to Respect.

With Respect, comes a voice in a board like this.

Growing up, and as a student in school and on the robotics team, I was always taught Respect has to be earned.

So yes, it IS hard to have a voice sometimes in the community. Its what happens when there are literally THOUSANDS of people striving for a voice. If you work hard and carefully for that voice, it will come.

One of my favourite movies is Field of Dreams. A modified quote from the movie follows.

"Build respect and the voice will come".

[smitikshah]

Originally Posted by Alyssa

To Sam, and the rest of the members of F4 -

Firstly, I’d like to start off by saying that the only reason I felt the need to post this was on account of the fact that you all seem to be scared of mentors and believe that they are some type of overbearing force that you need to revolt against. Thus, maybe as a student (at least, my last 2 days as a student), I’ll have a different impact on you all.

To start off, those who know me both online and in real life, know that I’m someone who can get quite defensive about the decisions I make, and get even more heated about certain topics I’m very passionate about. FIRST robotics, women’s rights, my friends and my family are all topics that I’ll get super intense about and feel the need to comment on.

One more thing I can add to the list of things I’m really passionate about is my love and respect for my mentors. My mentors are people that have put countless hours into me as an engineer as well as a person. They’re people that I constantly go to about anything in life, and whose opinions and insights are priceless to me. The idea of cutting them out of the way that I learn and grow is confounding to me, and it’s heartbreaking to think that other students would want to do that, and I think that is what F4 Connect will. This “new way to get help” as you call it will only cause a divide between students and mentors.

Another issue I see with F4 Connect is that while anonymity can be a good thing, it can also lead to a host of issues. Anonymity can lead to people saying whatever they want with no repercussions, and while you may think that red dots on Chief are “normal,” they’re a good way to keep people thinking twice about what they say and post.

The last biggest issue I see with F4 Connect is a point that Corsetto already brought up. While I’m all for students learning from other teams, I want to know which teams they’re learning from. I want them to be reaching out to the best of teams, and asking them for advice and for help with technical issues. If a freshman were to come to me with an idea the day after kickoff and tell me they saw it on one of 1114’s old robots, or 1678’s, I would happily look it up and be excited to see something awesome, and something I can learn from. But if they were to tell me they got it off of F4 Connect, knowing that the people on the site are made up of a very small sample size of students that have less than 4 years of experience, I would be quite a bit more skeptical.

Look back to when FIRST announced #2Champs. The entire community responded to the announcement, and rather than taking our input, they simply defended their decision and stubbornly have insisted that they are right ever since. Please try to take that into consideration before you defend yourself rather than listening to some of the valuable input that experienced veterans are offering you.

-Alyssa

First of all thank you for your input and time to share your thoughts on F4 Connect with us. I'm going to start off by emphasizing that F4 was absolutely not founded on the principle of being scared of mentors. F4 is commonly misunderstood. It is not a revolt against mentors - simply a group for students to get their ideas and opinions emphasized (which often aren't).

We are absolutely not discrediting mentors. We all respect our mentors who shape us to be who we are, and the endless dedication they put into each of us and our teams to make us better. In fact, I even told my mentor about F4 and it's idea, as I tell him almost everything going on. He supported the idea and thought it was a good solution.

Your post seems to be railing on the idea that we don't go to our mentor in times of need. While it is heartbreaking, many people look for outside advice, as every mentor has a certain amount of knowledge in different subjects. CD is a great place for people to post these questions, however as some previously mentioned, it can seem a bit overwhelming at times. The point of F4 Connect is not to create a divide between students and mentors, rather help students that wouldn't normally post on CD, and even possibly (as previously mentioned by Asid61 connect them with other professionals we think could answer the question better). We aren't looking to replace mentors with ourselves - simply offer some help/advice students would otherwise be intimidated to post directly.

As for the anonymity point - I agree. But we will ignore any troll type questions, and if it's serious enough, report it. However it is important to ensure some trust in the community. If you assume everyone is going to use it in a bad way, how will you address those people that use it for genuine purpose.

On the point about experienced teams. I agree to an extent. There are teams with certain success, and you want help from them. Let's not forget we have many qualified people on F4 Connect as well and just because they haven't had a certain level of success, I don't think it's a fair assessment to not consider their opinion. In addition, while technical questions is an option - we oriented it more towards rookies that need simple technical help. All other needs we think would be better answered we will direct elsewhere - or be frank with the person who submits the question and say they should probably ask someone more experienced.

I don't completely understand your last point about 2Champs. They are defending their decision because based on the knowledge/facts they have they realize it may be a better option. As emotionally straining as it might be, it still may be the better option, objectively (but this is opening a whole new can of worms).

We simply saw a problem that many of us faced and produced our solution to it. Whether it is the best solution or worst, without trying it out we don't know. If you don't think it will work then I think it's best to just not use it. I don't think trying to stop the service, with all the hard work put into it, before it even starts, helps anyone.

I would say over the course of this thread, we have gained some insight and made a couple changes as to how this will be run. We appreciate all the posts that help us improve. It is great to know that you were passionate enough to post on this topic, and I hope I was able to clarify some points about F4 Connect.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by smitikshah

students to get their ideas and opinions emphasized (which often aren't).

I have to disagree. While I have been in situations before (very few regarding my team) where I wish that I was taken more seriously, 90+ percent of the time what I say matters. Its like BKAHL said. You have to MAKE your voice heard by earning respect and proving yourself. By saying that the only way to get students voices emphasized is by creating a group where there are only students, is like (in a extreme way) saying that the only way to end world hunger, is to kill everyone in the world (again, I know this example is much more extreme, just the first thing that came to mind).

[smitikshah]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

I have to disagree. While I have been in situations before (very few regarding my team) where I wish that I was taken more seriously, 90+ percent of the time what I say matters. Its like BKAHL said. You have to MAKE your voice heard by earning respect and proving yourself. By saying that the only way to get students voices emphasized is by creating a group where there are only students, is like (in a extreme way) saying that the only way to end world hunger, is to kill everyone in the world (again, I know this example is much more extreme, just the first thing that came to mind).

I agree that example is extreme - and I don't know how it would even apply. By having a group of students giving out their opinion and making it its own entity, we can attract attention to it, therefore increasing the seriousness of students views. In your example you simply get rid of the problem - the point here is (like I said before) not to get rid of mentors or their ideas/opinions - simply to attract some attention to student views. Also we never said "the only way to get students voices emphasized is by creating a group where there are only students." We are simply offering one solution. Use it or not, it's your call. Either way this doesn't belong here and should probably go on one of the threads about the founding of F4 since it has a lot to do with the principles of its foundation - not connect.

Also, I'm happy to hear that what you say matters 90% of the time. This isn't the case in some scenarios (many of the founders of F4 Connect agreed). Even if we could help one person I would consider F4 Connect a success in my head.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by smitikshah

Either way this doesn't belong here and should probably go on one of the threads about the founding of F4 since it has a lot to do with the principles of its foundation - not connect.

Also, I'm happy to hear that what you say matters 90% of the time. This isn't the case in some scenarios (many of the founders of F4 Connect agreed). Even if we could help one person I would consider F4 Connect a success in my head.

That's true, and like I said before I understand why connect is being done, I just don't like the potential bad outcomes.

Don't get me wrong, I love what you guys are doing, and taking the time and effort to do something for the community, its truly amazing, and I hope at some point in the future I might be able to help. For now, I can only warn against possible bad outcomes where students get bad advice from other students.

[smitikshah]

Originally Posted by dirtbikerxz

]For now, I can only warn against possible bad outcomes where students get bad advice from other students.

Thank you - and you (as others) have valid points in warning against it. We are currently working to incorporate some of these ideas and fixing probable bad outcomes. I agree it's not perfect but it's in its first draft. I'm sure with some time it will be better and more refined.

[pwnageNick]

I know this isn't really related to the current topic, but I was just curious; what is the origin of the name "F4"? I hadn't seen the backstory anywhere and couldn't find anything upon a quick CD search.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by pwnageNick

I know this isn't really related to the current topic, but I was just curious; what is the origin of the name "F4"? I hadn't seen the backstory anywhere and couldn't find anything upon a quick CD search.

As said by SPERKOWSKY (Samuel) in this video: LINK It is what you want it to be

[Akash Rastogi]

I think everyone is taking this too seriously.

While I disagree with the sentiment behind the site, it's a little odd so many of you feel so strongly about it.

Let them be, whichever kid wants to use it will use it.

I still think they should reach out to mentors on CD, email, facebook, fax, AIM, or what have you. If you're a student and you're too scared or shy to do this - suck it up and just do it; learn how to contact people who you look up to. This is a life skill. I did it all the time when I started out.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by pwnageNick

I know this isn't really related to the current topic, but I was just curious; what is the origin of the name "F4"? I hadn't seen the backstory anywhere and couldn't find anything upon a quick CD search.

To be honest. I struggled to come up with a name. I was thinking of names and some how F4 came into my head. We have tried to make something up but failed. So F4 has no meaning.