Do Non-School Teams Have An Advantage?

[TheMagicPenguin]

I am on a FRC and FTC team, both run through thier own 501C and has no outside funding or help from a school. I've never been oin school run team and I don't know how the run compared to a neighborhood team. I do feel as if we often have a advantage to other school teams.

Some examples would inculde : Not going through the school for funds, ordering parts faster, being able to meet whenever, accepting more sponsors, not having to deal with permission for travel / hotels.

So I'm curious. Do you feel like there is an advantage one way or the other, and if so is it a bad thing? Are the things I listed necessarily true?

[Tom Line]

No... there isn't a huge advantage to not being attached to a school.

For instance, we get a sales-tax exemption because we are with the school. The forms kids have to sign are waivers as much as anything - and I'm certain you have the same liability issues that school teams do. In fact, yours may be worse because you may have to carry your own insurance.

We don't have to wait to order things. The mentors generally pay for them ourselves and get reimbursed later. Not a big deal. We haven't had any problems with sponsors because we're attached to the school. I mean, it's not like we'd be accepting liquor or gambling sponsorships anyway.

We can already meet whenever. Even if there's a snow day, we still meet afterwards as long as the roads are cleared.

[Alex2614]

Originally Posted by Tom Line

No... there isn't a huge advantage to not being attached to a school.

For instance, we get a sales-tax exemption because we are with the school. The forms kids have to sign are waivers as much as anything - and I'm certain you have the same liability issues that school teams do. In fact, yours may be worse because you may have to carry your own insurance.

We don't have to wait to order things. The mentors generally pay for them ourselves and get reimbursed later. Not a big deal. We haven't had any problems with sponsors because we're attached to the school. I mean, it's not like we'd be accepting liquor or gambling sponsorships anyway.

We can already meet whenever. Even if there's a snow day, we still meet afterwards as long as the roads are cleared.

This is not the case for all school teams, and I can say that not being affiliated with a school is a DEFINITE advantage for us. Some teams work better being affiliated with a school, and that's great. Others wouldn't be able to work in the school. One situation isn't applicable to everyone. For example, we definitely wouldn't be able to meet on snow days based on our school board rules. It's great that your school allows you to. For many others, it's a different story.

--

Let me lay out the pros and cons that MARS has experienced, being not affiliated with the school, but sponsored by the board of education (based out of a university), based on the rules of our school district. We are a community team that is comprised primarily of two rival cross-town rival high schools, and several other students. Some of these pros and cons that apply to us might not necessarily apply to others due to differing school districts. There was a team before us that was based out of the school that was never successful, and folded because the school didn't provide any facilities or money or really any support at all.

Pros:
We can accept any student from any county/school.
We can meet anytime/anywhere we want
We can travel using any method (usually we carpool, and we dabbled with a flying option this year)
School board gives us a practice field and a hefty monetary donation each year, but we are not bound by their rules, and the students still get absence exemptions
We don't have to worry about having a teacher involved with the team every year
We can do all kinds of official team events around town and around the state utilizing a carpool (carpools with adults to any official away event is prohibited for school organizations in our county. We would need a bus for everything)

Cons:
We have to organize our own transportation (also a pro because we have leeway, but it's not free like it is for some school teams)
Need our own insurance (completely do-able)

Again, this is for us. Depending on the team and the school, these may look way different for others. Some of our "pros" could be "cons" for other teams, or may not even apply to all.

The moral of the story is, figure out what is best for YOU. One size doesn't fit all, so you need to see what would be best for you based on your situation, your school district's rules, etc.

[electroken]

Originally Posted by Alex2614

Pros:
We can accept any student from any county/school.
We can travel using any method (usually we carpool, and we dabbled with a flying option this year)
School board gives us a practice field and a hefty monetary donation each year, but we are not bound by their rules, and the students still get absence exemptions

We can only dream about these. Often the school affiliation feels like shackles.

We can't take home-schooled kids from within our own town.

Except for large distances where air travel is preferred/required we must travel by bus. This is complicated by the fact that our school system's buses cannot leave the state, so travel has become very expensive (sometimes prohibitively so).

The option of going rogue exists but means the students would have unexcused absences for weekday events.

[NShep98]

One big pro about being in a separate building is being able to meet when we want, as often as we want. Of course, we have to pay rent, and our shared building locks itself up at a certain time of night (be on time, folks), and most of our team draws more from one school than most others, and our freight elevator has broken once or twice, but overall this system works for the team.

[Zebra_Fact_Man]

As with all things, it depends. Financial freedom is critical in the manufacturing world (which FRC finds itself in). With the dynamic and fast paced nature of build season, purchases sometimes need to be made and put through within a 24hr window. Of COURSE if the school is holding you back, it will hinder success.

However, school support can be greatly beneficial too! Schools can supply large amounts of capital that would cost thousands of dollars if purchased by the team or its sponsors, such as computer labs and machine shops. Schools can also provide build and practice field space.

I think ultimately the biggest factor is how the school administration views the team. If the perception is that you are just another club, you are probably better off independent. However, if the administration views you more like a team, they will support you as such. What are things sports teams have: playing field, training facilities, coaching staff. All things FRC teams need to be elite.

[fargus111111111]

Team 343 is sponsored and housed by the school district and while that has it's frustrations, mostly snow days where we can't go work and the inability to use 14 passenger vans, we are very appreciative of their support. They do provide us with some monetary sponsorship, but the biggest aspect of their support that I think really helps us be as successful as we are is the facility we get to use free of charge. We are housed in the career center (vocational school) and as a result we have a full machine shop right down the hall, a wood shop that often builds field elements for us, and a welding shop that we can use. Behind the career center there is also a warehouse that we are given a small portion of, enough for a half field and storage space for all our old bots. While I realize that many school sponsored teams are not as fortunate as we are I think that it is definitely a huge advantage to have a work space that is free.

Also from a recruiting standpoint we get the opportunity to drive robots around at open house nights and people can come into "robot central" and see what we do.

As far as membership limits, we are fortunate that our school district does not limit us at all, any FRC eligible student is welcome, including private school students and home-schoolers as we are an after school program and function, as far as the paper side of things, like a band or other sports team.

Also, because we are school sponsored, all our trips are recorded as "educational field trips" and thus they are not counted against us.

In short, there are pros and cons to both, but, at least for our team, I think we would have a much harder time if not for their enthusiastic support.

[bigbeezy]

It all depends on each individual situation. Neither is better than the other.

We have zero delay with ordering parts, I front everything robot on my credit card and the school writes me a check at a later time. Travel, we just tell them where we are going and when. If it's within Illinois or 1 state over the school district provides school busses at no cost to us (saves us thousands every year!). Kids sign waivers through the school to participate. Our shop is actually off campus so that makes it logistically easier, though if we want to use rooms at the school we just submit a request for it. Not a big deal. School also allows us to utilize their box truck for transporting large amounts of things (like our field).

Snow days do hurt (got lucky the only super cold days this year there was no school anyway). We can't use more than 10 passenger vans. And a school employee has to be present at meetings (though myself and 2 other mentors have become "team coaches" for this reason).

This is just us, I've heard plenty of situations which would be considered the complete opposite.

[Kevin Ray]

I guess the optimal situation is the blend of the two. We are a school team and have a parent-run 501c3 booster club. There are benefits that we derive from each that are almost equally as important as the other. From the school we are provided a great facility which is well maintained and free. We get financial support that is utilized when it is not time-essential (entry fees, general supplies etc.)

From the 501c3 money we have instantaneous access to money without restrictions. The boosters also continue to raise money should a new need arise, whereas the school only provides a set budget each year and money has to be spent wisely.

Each of the two programs has its benefits and drawbacks. Most teams are unable to choose which of the two they would like to have, however, they could have both if they set their minds to it.

[smitikshah]

We are a school run team and there are very obvious pros and cons to this:

Cons:
1.) Having to make sure we only purchase things through certain NYS approved vendors. This keeps us from ordering certain cheap tools/necessities off of amazon and craigslist. Also procuring sole source letters when you have to order under a time crunch for big items can be annoying.
2.) Order time. Our lead fiscal mentor is really awesome about putting in orders ASAP so that we get things on time - but it's just the anxiety of knowing that we have to go through a process and paperwork for ordering items and it may delay us a bit is annoying. This can be good in a way because it keeps people that need to order stuff on their toes and makes sure they don't slack on their work.
3.) Space. Our school was wonderful about giving us our own space, but many schools have to use the back of other classrooms during build season just to have somewhere to put their stuff and build. When you have a non-school team you can find

Pros:
1.) Lots of easy close opportunities for outreach. Our school district is always having activities and events going on where we are welcome to bring our robot and let the community learn about FRC.
2.) Students. There are always students coming into our high school so its easy to get enrollment in the club. A lot of non-school affiliated teams have to do events and put up flyers in the community to get people to join the club. We are lucky enough to have the district support our club and get to advertise it in the school.
3.) Bussing/Transportation to events. The school will pay for busses that we need to get to events so we can ensure maximum amount of our students can attend. We don't have to pay for them as our district is wonderful in budgeting for them if they are requested enough time ahead of the event.
4.) Meeting times/days. As we are an extracurricular we can have meeting in school and don't need to worry about kids having to drive to meetings.
5.) Biggest One: Money! Our school supports the club and is very wonderful in giving us funding to make sure that we can build our robot and go to competitions every year. I think this year with our great performances at competitions and increased interest in the club our school district gave around $15k!

I personally love being on a school affiliated team, and think that the simple ordering stuff, while a pain, is overcome with the benefits listed above.

[TheMagicPenguin]

Never relaized how many teams travel together either. On both my FTC and FTC team you mhst provide your own transition/hotel rooms (the team does save a block of rooms occasionally).

Every event I've been to my team trickles in slowly.

[Mr V]

There really is no cut and dried answer to this question. Fact is school district policies vary greatly.

For example I know one school where the students are required to travel on the district provided bus and there is no cost to the team or students, in another case the students are required to travel on the school bus and the school takes money out of the team's account to cover the cost and then some.

I know some schools that will automatically pay that CMP or DCMP registration fee because the team earned the right to attend.

Some states have grants available to teams that are affiliated with a public school.

Some schools require that all purchases get approved which can be a several day process, others allow the teacher to submit a PO or check out a school credit card and purchase at will within their budget. Some schools will float the team when they have run out of money. Some schools will charge a fee for handling that money either from grants or that the team has raised.

Some school districts will actively solicit donations on behalf of the team.

Some schools will purchase tools and equipment to be used by the team and in the classroom.

Some schools are very proud of their robotics program, will do things like announce the results of the team's competition in their newsletters, website ect, while others completely ignore it.

So it all depends on the school and school district you are comparing it to.

[Michael Hill]

For us, there are advantages and disadvantages. Our team is a 501c3 with no school affiliation. Advantages include not needing to go through the administration to get parts ordered, we can meet when schools are closed due to snow, we can qualify for certain grants, and we're not restricted on building hours. Disadvantages are more difficult travel, difficult time with school administrations letting students out of school for competition, and no constant steam of new kids to attract to our team. Many schools will not let us demo our robot, so recruitment is done via outreach and mostly by word of mouth.

[teslalab2]

YES!! I advise two home-schooled vex teams, 8091a and 8091b. They are all amazing, being home-schooled they are all very well disciplined. The other thing is the advisors, not mentors. There isn't that micromanagement that I see with most teams. The kids design and build their robots on their own, with very little help from the adults, its really great to just sit back and watch the kids work and be awesome.

[Jon Stratis]

As others have said, it all depends on the relationship with the school - and unless everyone on a team is home schooled, even community based teams have that relationship (for example, needing to take kids out of school for events needs some degree of school approval).

For my team, I struggle to see any downside. The school built a new STEM center, largely designed for team needs. They help with finding and transportation, tools and materials. We can purchase whatever we need when we need it from any vendor, and get reimbursed later. We have school employees working with the team, providing us direct access to students during the school day, helping with planning around school events, and managing pulling students out of class when we need them.