Discussion on All-Girl events

[The Swaggy P]

Originally Posted by Chris Fultz

The 2016 IndyRAGE (Robotics All Girls Event) is set!

Saturday October 1
Perry Meridian High School
Indianapolis, IN

24 Teams

<$100 entry fee due to excellent sponsor support!

Stronghold Game - All female drive team required (including coach).

Focus on female volunteers in all roles.

Two Lunch time panel discussions -
* Female Focused - Career, Opportunity, Education, Challenges in STEM
* Male Focused - Unintentional Bias and Actions and The Impact on Diversity

More details, registration and volunteer sign up in August / September.

Hosted by FRC 234 - Cyber Blue.

So, does this mean, as a boy, I should cancel all my educational plans and catch the nearest plane to the salt mines in northern Russia?
For it appears that the planned lunch discussions are biased against males.

Replacing one bias with another does not solve the gender equality issue.

[pilleya]

Originally Posted by The Swaggy P

So, does this mean, as a boy, I should cancel all my educational plans and catch the nearest plane to the salt mines in northern Russia?
For it appears that the planned lunch discussions are biased against males.

Replacing one bias with another does not solve the gender equality issue.

Team 234 is putting a lot of work into organising and running this event let's not take away from that.

The planned lunch discussions are not biased against males. They are simply discussing bias and its effects.

The idea of gender bias is something that you might not want to be discussed, but it is highly important and a good use of time IMO.

Unintentional and Intentional Bias is prevalent in our world and you would have to be quite naïve not to see this.

If you have any specific questions about the discussions I recommend that you Mr Anonymous should PM Chris Fultz

[The Swaggy P]

Originally Posted by pilleya

Team 234 is putting a lot of work into organising and running this event let's not take away from that.

The planned lunch discussions are not biased against males. They are simply discussing bias and its effects.

The idea of gender bias is something that you might not want to be discussed, but it is highly important and a good use of time IMO.

Gender related bias is prevalent and you would have to be quite naïve not to see this.

If you have any specific questions about the discussions I recommend that you Mr Anonymous should PM Chris Fultz

I do not object to gender bias discussions. What bothers me is the format of these discussions, which makes it seem as though all boys are already biased, and only girls are fit to enroll in college and STEM courses.

And I believe you have spelled my name wrong. It is not "Mr Anonymous, it is The Swaggy P.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by The Swaggy P

What bothers me is the format of these discussions, which makes it seem as though all boys are already biased, and only girls are fit to enroll in college and STEM courses.

And I believe you have spelled my name wrong. It is not "Mr Anonymous, it is The Swaggy P.

What bothers me is a troll who is looking to start a fight behind the veil of anonymity.

Back on topic...

I would like to attend and learn some things from the male-focused session, for sure. Thanks for hosting these sessions.

Sincerely,
Andy B.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by The Swaggy P

I do not object to gender bias discussions. What bothers me is the format of these discussions, which makes it seem as though all boys are already biased, and only girls are fit to enroll in college and STEM courses.

And I believe you have spelled my name wrong. It is not "Mr Anonymous, it is The Swaggy P.

Make a new thread to complain and moan if you wish, this thread is about the awesome Indy Rage event.
While your at it, add a team name, and your own name to the account if are claiming that you aren't being anonymous.

[smitikshah]

"The Swaggy P" - I understand you may think that the event is favoring girls and pushing them in STEM, but as some people have brought up, engineering fields are predominantly male. I thought for a while that this was because females just didn't like engineering, but from my personal experiences, I can assure that from my point of view that is certainly not the case.

Quick Storytime:
For this summer, I was accepted into a materials science engineering/bioengineering lab to pursue an idea I had for the future of materials engineering. I was so excited to go into the lab and start working! Within the past week, however, I was a bit turned down by the atmosphere. I am the only female in the lab (of about 15 people), and I feel like there is a lot of unintentional bias going on. For example. just today, all the "bros" (as they like to call themselves) made plans to go out for a lab team lunch, and I was the only one that wasn't invited. I'm sure you will say that this might be due to a variety of other factors - but based on the way they act, I'm sure it's out of unintentional bias. There are a plethora of other examples that would take too long to write out, so if you need more PM me. Again, I'm sure what they are doing is unintentional, and I know that in a professional environment, I shouldn't need to be best friends with everyone I work with, but that environment does make me feel upset and lonely at times. However, since I really believe in my idea, I plan on finishing my work in this lab and trying to fulfill my dream of having the idea published - but I probably won't work at said lab again.

Rambling story aside: Some males might not realize they do it because of the predominant influence of males in the field, but this unintentional bias can lead some of us girls to not feel welcome.

I am thrilled that this event is taking place and hopefully the panel discussions can help better the STEM/Engineering Environment for all of us!

[asid61]

Originally Posted by smitikshah

"The Swaggy P" - I understand you may think that the event is favoring girls and pushing them in STEM, but as some people have brought up, engineering fields are predominantly male. I thought for a while that this was because females just didn't like engineering, but from my personal experiences, I can assure that from my point of view that is certainly not the case.

Quick Storytime:
For this summer, I was accepted into a materials science engineering/bioengineering lab to pursue an idea I had for the future of materials engineering. I was so excited to go into the lab and start working! Within the past week, however, I was a bit turned down by the atmosphere. I am the only female in the lab (of about 15 people), and I feel like there is a lot of unintentional bias going on. For example. just today, all the "bros" (as they like to call themselves) made plans to go out for a lab team lunch, and I was the only one that wasn't invited. I'm sure you will say that this might be due to a variety of other factors - but based on the way they act, I'm sure it's out of unintentional bias. There are a plethora of other examples that would take too long to write out, so if you need more PM me. Again, I'm sure what they are doing is unintentional, and I know that in a professional environment, I shouldn't need to be best friends with everyone I work with, but that environment does make me feel upset and lonely at times. However, since I really believe in my idea, I plan on finishing my work in this lab and trying to fulfill my dream of having the idea published - but I probably won't work at said lab again.

Rambling story aside: Some males might not realize they do it because of the predominant influence of males in the field, but this unintentional bias can lead some of us girls to not feel welcome.

I am thrilled that this event is taking place and hopefully the panel discussions can help better the STEM/Engineering Environment for all of us!

I won't be attending, unfortunately (IN is a bit too far...) but I would like to say that this post effected me a lot more than any single talk or speech that I've heard. If I was attending the seminar about unintentional bias I would look forward to stories or examples like these.

The thread is only at 2 pages yet. If people stop arguing, regardless of stances or views, than legitimate questions can be asked and answered about the event.

[Gdeaver]

Discrimination is discrimination. To exclude a group based upon their sex, sexual orientation, culture or religion is discrimination. This is a sexist discriminating event. Further, it may actually be negative in the goal the organizers are trying to address. This is my point of view.

The girls have to learn how to play with the boys and the boys have to learn how to play with the girls. After over a decade of working with diverse FRC team I can say this is very very hard. Every one is focusing on the girls. We need to also focus on the boys. They need to learn how to play nicely with the girls and take this forward in to the work place in the future. The girls also have to learn how to integrate into a team with boys on it. It all starts with respect. Respect, respect, respect.

Our team will not participate in a sexist event.


Go ahead and Flame me. I have my flame resistant suit on.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Discrimination is discrimination. To exclude a group based upon their sex, sexual orientation, culture or religion is discrimination. This is a sexist discriminating event. Further, it may actually be negative in the goal the organizers are trying to address. This is my point of view.

The girls have to learn how to play with the boys and the boys have to learn how to play with the girls. After over a decade of working with diverse FRC team I can say this is very very hard. Every one is focusing on the girls. We need to also focus on the boys. They need to learn how to play nicely with the girls and take this forward in to the work place in the future. The girls also have to learn how to integrate into a team with boys on it. It all starts with respect. Respect, respect, respect.

Our team will not participate in a sexist event.


Go ahead and Flame me. I have my flame resistant suit on.

If you've ever walked the pits at an event, you wouldn't say boys are discriminated against in FRc, and any single off-season event isn't going to change that. That's like saying adults are discriminated against at movie theaters because Seniors and children get cheaper tickets.

For me, this sort of discussion keeps coming back to something one of my former students wrote: http://makezine.com/2015/05/01/build...d-better-team/

Is there a solution? Surely, females must be confident in their ability to perform, and they must display that confidence — or they will never receive respect. As stated by Madeleine Logeais, 2014 FIRST Dean’s List Winner, “Expectation translates to invitation.” When a girl enters a situation guarded, others will perceive it as a lack of confidence in her own ability. (Similarly, boys can be overconfident in their ability, yet it can be driven also by the same underlying insecurity.)

Events like this help to build girls confidence, allowing them to go into a mix gendered situation during the season with that confidence and asserting themselves. Otherwise (and as a 10-year mentor for an all girls team, i've seen it way too often) the girls don't assert themselves in those situations, and so the guys run right over them in their confidence. It's nothing intentional by either group most of the time, but rather a result of typical gender stereotyping we all grew up with - since engineering is a "guy thing", girls generally enter it less confident, regardless of their ability, and that lack of confidence causes a lot of the issues. So bring on events like this, help girls build their confidence so they can assert themselves in other situations.

[Liam Fay]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Discrimination is discrimination. To exclude a group based upon their sex, sexual orientation, culture or religion is discrimination. This is a sexist discriminating event. Further, it may actually be negative in the goal the organizers are trying to address. This is my point of view.

The girls have to learn how to play with the boys and the boys have to learn how to play with the girls. After over a decade of working with diverse FRC team I can say this is very very hard. Every one is focusing on the girls. We need to also focus on the boys. They need to learn how to play nicely with the girls and take this forward in to the work place in the future. The girls also have to learn how to integrate into a team with boys on it. It all starts with respect. Respect, respect, respect.

Our team will not participate in a sexist event.


Go ahead and Flame me. I have my flame resistant suit on.

I think you're missing the point here.

This is not about discriminating against young men to put young women on some sort of pedestal. This is not about pushing young men down, it's about raising young women up.

When it comes to these sort of discussions regarding differing treatment towards people of different ethnicity, gender identity, or anything else, we really need to see this as an "issue" (it really shouldn't be an issue) of equity, not equality. This means that this event isn't about giving everyone the same opportunity; it's about giving opportunity to those who have had it taken away from them by virtue of their own gender. Women face many challenges in the STEM fields, and while I'm sure there are some that only men face, the problems that face women are discouraging at the very least and quite often debilitating. This event give these young scientists an opportunity to experience STEM without those hurdles.

Finally, I would like to step off my soapbox for a minute and apologize for speaking on behalf of any women who may feel differently.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by Liam Fay

This is not about discriminating against young men to put young women on some sort of pedestal. This is not about pushing young men down, it's about raising young women up.

You are correct, however I believe the argument being made is that if that is the case, don't separate the workshops by gender. Both workshops are important topics, but to say that young women can only attend the "success" workshop and young men can only attend the "learn to fix your accidental bad behavior" workshop makes one push in the right direction and another push in the wrong direction.

Why not offer both workshops to everyone and encourage everyone to attend whichever one they choose, or even mix the two together into a single workshop? Either way by attending one of the workshops the participants will learn something valuable. I think that if a single workshop that covered career success in STEM fields as well as inclusion in STEM was offered, nobody would be complaining.

A final thought: It is no secret that a majority of the difficulties pushing young women away from STEM come from men, even unintentionally, and it is no secret that because of these difficulties entering the STEM fields can be daunting and deterring for many young women. But we forget that sometimes it can also be young women who accidentally make it difficult for other young women to enter the field, and likewise, sometimes young men see STEM as daunting and deterring. It may be a minority, but it still exists. Just as you can't fight hate with hate, you cannot fight gender roles with more gender roles. Inclusion and equality is the only way forwards.

[Liam Fay]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

You are correct, however I believe the argument being made is that if that is the case, don't separate the workshops by gender. Both workshops are important topics, but to say that young women can only attend the "success" workshop and young men can only attend the "learn to fix your accidental bad behavior" workshop makes one push in the right direction and another push in the wrong direction.

Why not offer both workshops to everyone and encourage everyone to attend whichever one they choose, or even mix the two together into a single workshop? Either way by attending one of the workshops the participants will learn something valuable. I think that if a single workshop that covered career success in STEM fields as well as inclusion in STEM was offered, nobody would be complaining.

A final thought: It is no secret that a majority of the difficulties pushing young women away from STEM come from men, even unintentionally, and it is no secret that because of these difficulties entering the STEM fields can be daunting and deterring for many young women. But we forget that sometimes it can also be young women who accidentally make it difficult for other young women to enter the field, and likewise, sometimes young men see STEM as daunting and deterring. It may be a minority, but it still exists. Just as you can't fight hate with hate, you cannot fight gender roles with more gender roles. Inclusion and equality is the only way forwards.

I appreciate your point of view, and I agree with a lot of what you've said. I have a couple things to say, though.

While in theory, having workshops available to everyone gives twice the number of people valuable experience, it doesn't work out that way. I'm going to overstep my bounds as someone who is not a woman and say that often the presence of men would unintentionally cause these women to not feel as comfortable fully participating or sharing.

And sure, you make a good point about some women who make the STEM world hostile for other women. However, these women 1) are a minority of women in STEM and 2) would likely also benefit from workshops that encourage making STEM more hospitable towards women.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by Liam Fay

While in theory, having workshops available to everyone gives twice the number of people valuable experience, it doesn't work out that way. I'm going to overstep my bounds as someone who is not a woman and say that often the presence of men would unintentionally cause these women to not feel as comfortable fully participating or sharing.

If solely the presence of another gender makes someone feel uncomfortable, regardless of who they are, that's on them. You cannot say that just having a gender exist in an area is enough to rationalize discomfort. If you cannot speak your mind because another gender is present, that is not the fault of the other gender.

Now I would understand if, for a more specific hypothetical example, boys were in the girl's workshop and they started heckling girls or showing clear examples of bias or prejudice, then yes, it would make sense that others would feel uncomfortable. However to make the assumption that allowing boys to participate in the workshop would surely result in heckling and prejudice is prejudice in it of itself.

We use this program to inspire young adults to be mature and educated individuals who are better prepared for the real world than their peers outside the program. We cannot accomplish this if we use reverse discrimination to solve a problem of discrimination, and we certainly cannot accomplish it if we allow prejudiced assumptions to justify the mindset of irrational discomfort solely due to the presence of another gender.

[ThaddeusMaximus]

Originally Posted by Gdeaver

Discrimination is discrimination. To exclude a group based upon their sex, sexual orientation, culture or religion is discrimination. This is a sexist discriminating event. Further, it may actually be negative in the goal the organizers are trying to address. This is my point of view.

The girls have to learn how to play with the boys and the boys have to learn how to play with the girls. After over a decade of working with diverse FRC team I can say this is very very hard. Every one is focusing on the girls. We need to also focus on the boys. They need to learn how to play nicely with the girls and take this forward in to the work place in the future. The girls also have to learn how to integrate into a team with boys on it. It all starts with respect. Respect, respect, respect.

Our team will not participate in a sexist event.


Go ahead and Flame me. I have my flame resistant suit on.

*slow clap* (Bolding is mine.)

Spout all theory y'all want, but we're engineers, and we know that theory doesn't hold up in the real world and we must deal with it. The best way is to practice. The worst thing to do to a budding engineer is to give them a false sense of what reality is. I have never coddled, and will never coddle my students- whether it's about discrimination, workload, etc.

(This is about the direction I feel FIRST is going in in general. I feel there's too much hype and superficiality and quite frankly, disconnect from industry in general...)

Someone mentioned that so many females leave STEM fields after joining. Even if bucking up female involvement is a goal, is false advertising somehow NOT hampering retention?

Personally, I just want more freaking great engineers. I don't care what they look like.

[Ed Law]

Originally Posted by ThaddeusMaximus

Personally, I just want more freaking great engineers. I don't care what they look like.

A lot of companies learned that diversity is important, not because they want to look good and can say they have more women and minorities etc. It indirectly affects their bottom line. It is money. Having a more diverse workforce makes a company more competitive. For most products that are not aimed at a certain gender or ethnicity, you want your engineers to think like and be able to relate to the population that you are targeting to sell your product. If half of the buyers are women, it would be a good idea to include women as part of the engineering design team. I am saying this from past personal experience. Female engineers bring a lot to the table.