Value & Credibility of 4th robots on an Alliance

[wilsonmw04]

Originally Posted by indubitably

Directed at a member of the CD Community:


Bully Alert!!

That's an interesting statement. I disagree that I am bullying anyone. Insulting a team, or anyone for that matter, under the cloak of an anonymous account is indeed small. It takes little character to do that. I would have you notice that I put my name to my comments. Why won't the person in question do the same? That answer is simple, he doesn't want to receive the consequences for his statements. I am. Your opinion,however, is duly noted.

[jtrv]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

That's an interesting statement. I disagree that I am bullying anyone. Insulting a team, or anyone for that matter, under the cloak of an anonymous account is indeed small. It takes little character to do that. I would have you notice that I put my name to my comments. Why won't the person in question do the same? That answer is simple, he doesn't want to receive the consequences for his statements. I am. Your opinion,however, is duly noted.

If he made up a name and put in some random team number, you wouldn't have a clue it was a fake name because you would never check to see if that name is real. You'd just assume that person is real. At what point does this stop?

If I posted what you did, but in response to someone with a name, I could risk suspension here. But someone without a real name is ok to insult like that?

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by indubitably

Directed at a member of the CD Community:


Bully Alert!!

Originally Posted by jtrv

If he made up a name and put in some random team number, you wouldn't have a clue it was a fake name because you would never check to see if that name is real. You'd just assume that person is real. At what point does this stop?

If I posted what you did, but in response to someone with a name, I could risk suspension here. But someone without a real name is ok to insult like that?

Matt has grown dismissive of the persistent political BS that infects this forum on a daily basis and inflames in the offseason when people with no life outside of robotics spend their days s***posting on the boards. The definition of bullying most people with a loose grasp of English is "use superior strength or influence to intimidate (someone), typically to force him or her to do what one wants." A synonym we might be looking for is persecution, especially since people on this board are actually persecuted regularly and the only people that claim to be persecuted are people who by most accounts, are not being persecuted, just being told to go waste someone else's time with their particular brand of drivel (Summer CD specializes in only the highest quality of drivel, you know) It is pretty easy to perceive that members of 1086 might feel persecuted by some kid implying that the work they put in this season to be considered a backup is for naught because of where they got picked on the draft board.

Here are three things people in FIRST with no life love to do:
1) Create exclusive clubs for themselves and their "friends" in an effort to put themselves up on a pedestal
2) Use those networks as a tool to talk $@#$@#$@#$@# about other teams to make themselves feel better, driving wedges between people in an otherwise inclusive program.
3) Pretend to themselves they exercise some great and all encompassing power when in reality they are very small people that do not have the control of themselves they need and therefore choose to concoct a false influence over others to mask the inadequacy.
These are all flaws that are not unique to FIRST, but in lieu of parroting the idea of "Gracious Professionalism" I will just say "Don't be an unrepentant and self absorbed jerk" because it's the most direct the filter on here will let me be.

If it's not abundantly clear, let me explicitly state that I really couldn't give a toss about what people think of me personally, but people who talk $@#$@#$@#$@# about my team and likely will continue to infest our community with their incessant political BS can be easily told where they can stick their opinion. If you think Matt standing up for his team is bullying, I can tell you where you can stick that opinion as well.

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

perhaps I am missing something but when did he specifically insult you/your team? Even the post this thread started with was questionably mean. In fact id go out on a limb and say you were being obnoxious even correcting him saying 1/2 instead of 2/3. First has an element of luck built in. Even Frank Merrick says that. I think you would agree that teams like 118, 195, 2056, ect have better robots then you but, you are the one hanging up the world championships banner. I don't fault you for that and I have seen your robot doing well in person multiple times but others do. Threads like this very rarely stay completely respectful you and me both know that and sadly you usually can not expect them to do so.

Just some food for thought.

Sam, I'm going to go ahead and post something you will wish was a PM, but allow me to go out on a limb here and call your post obnoxious. Would you think it would be a jerk move if I just did a wholesale discount of the entire New York City/State regional system, which has only produced one world champion since 2000 (and that team is defunct)? Do you like the idea of people being openly and publicly dismissive of your team and their efforts? This is a simple yes or no question.

Of course there is an element of luck built in to FRC. The two years there was little good luck involved happened to be two of the most reviled years of the competition. That isn't relevant to people being blabbering idiots on the internet. It does require a certain level of competency to make it to championships on a merit bid. It just so happens that 1086 was in the top 5 of their district system this year, beating us in the same brackets two times out of three.

I guess it is too much to ask that people quit being blabbering and disrespectful idiots on the internet at all, even a place like CD which is supposed to operate as an extension of an already existing and intimate face to face kind of community. We should all just throw our hands up and expect BS. We should all feed the drama machine be it in public or in PMs. Why not give in to the idea that every part of FIRST has problems that cannot be fixed or can only be fixed with one's personal gracious flick of a finger?

Maybe people will claim that this was bullying or targeted. It's really not. I'm just 10000 miles over the politics and this cesspool of privilege and pathetic drama that is this website.

[Aidan Cox]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Maybe people will claim that this was bullying or targeted. It's really not. I'm just 10000 miles over the politics and this cesspool of privilege and pathetic drama that is this website.

Salt Delphi

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

Would you think it would be a jerk move if I just did a wholesale discount of the entire New York City/State regional system, which has only produced one world champion since 2000 (and that team is defunct)?

We're working on it.

[EricH]

All right, I'm going to ask a really simple question.

What about the 4th robot that comes in to replace a broken robot, and possibly helps get the alliance to Champs in the first place?

That's right, 4th robots are perfectly valid at the regional/district level as well. They might not show up as often, and they're eligible to be called in primarily because of their ranking (and that's a whole 'nother debate, folks), but if anybody wants to argue that an alliance should win because of a forced 2v3 (or, on the other side, lose due to same) because somebody can't be repaired in time, then I think there's a lot of people that will be looking at them really funny.

I would say that 4th robots are valuable to the alliance that selects them, or has need of them and calls them in--and they are every bit as deserving of whatever the result is as the rest of the alliance. (Even if they were called in as a backup to an alliance down 0-1 in the finals, and lost that match.)

And the other question: how valuable is that experience to those teams? To work right alongside very good teams for an "extended" time can really boost a team up. That, in some folks' minds (and at some levels), can be just as compelling a reason as any strategic one.

[Siri]

Originally Posted by EricH

All right, I'm going to ask a really simple question.

What about the 4th robot that comes in to replace a broken robot, and possibly helps get the alliance to Champs in the first place?

That's right, 4th robots are perfectly valid at the regional/district level as well. They might not show up as often, and they're eligible to be called in primarily because of their ranking (and that's a whole 'nother debate, folks), but if anybody wants to argue that an alliance should win because of a forced 2v3 (or, on the other side, lose due to same) because somebody can't be repaired in time, then I think there's a lot of people that will be looking at them really funny.

I would say that 4th robots are valuable to the alliance that selects them, or has need of them and calls them in--and they are every bit as deserving of whatever the result is as the rest of the alliance. (Even if they were called in as a backup to an alliance down 0-1 in the finals, and lost that match.)

I credit 4th robots in either case, but 4th robots rules at Champs are fundamentally different than at others. If I call in a 4th robot to my alliance at a Regional, I'm trading (for a match) a robot I picked, so there must be a specific important reason. (Separately, I have no direct control over which team is the backup.) On the other hand, 4th robots are required of all alliances at Champs, and nothing is required to be done with them. We can rightfully assume that they do play important roles even off-field, and that any alliance good enough to win Einstein is smart enough to select their 4th strategically. Yet contrary to actively subbing a 4th at a Regional, the only thing mandated at Champs is passive selection.

In fact, I wonder if that isn't some people's distinction. General question: Regardless of how you view the contributions of Champs 4th robots when they lose matches or don't play, do you value Regional/District 4th robot contributions (who lose matches) more, less, or similarly?

Originally Posted by EricH

And the other question: how valuable is that experience to those teams? To work right alongside very good teams for an "extended" time can really boost a team up. That, in some folks' minds (and at some levels), can be just as compelling a reason as any strategic one.

I remember our 4th robot for Einstein Finals (2014, 5136). They were a rookie and HRS, and it was, to paraphrase them, "the best day of our lives!" Good guys; we liked working with them. We did not have (to call in) a 4th for Einstein in 2013, and while it was totally normal at the time, in retrospect I kind of miss it. I really do like this system with the benefit of direct comparison.

[JABot67]

Originally Posted by EricH

All right, I'm going to ask a really simple question.

What about the 4th robot that comes in to replace a broken robot, and possibly helps get the alliance to Champs in the first place?

That's right, 4th robots are perfectly valid at the regional/district level as well.

6086: The backup bot nobody saw coming.

http://www.thebluealliance.com/match/2016micmp_f1m3

That alliance needed all 4 robots to win MSC. For darn sure.

[evanperryg]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

this one

While I agree with you, I'd like to remind you that you come off the same way on a very regular basis. As much as I find it amusing when you tell off some high-and-mighty CDer, you rarely do it with any tact at all. So, while condemning the cliques and aggressive rhetoric of CD is good, you're just as deep into it as the rest of us.

Also, friendly shout-out to 5254 and 20, who are good NY teams. Especially 5254, who is one of the most underrated teams in FRC.

Back to the topic at hand

1086 is a good team. They make good robots. They made valid contributions to the world champion alliance. They are a world champion. Never have I seen an alliance where I really felt that the 4th team wasn't making some sort of contribution. It's not about their robot, it's about their team. Even if their robot isn't on the field, they're still in on strategic discussions, and can help in making those choices. They still have a pit full of things that can help fix robots, or help put on blockers, stuff like that. They have human players. They have a team of excited students, cheering alongside the other three teams.

Originally Posted by pandamonium

What do people think about a rule stating that 4th robots have to touch the carpet in eliminations?

It's annoying, honestly. After seeing it in action at MARC 2014, I'd argue that this kind of rule constricts the strategic capabilities of a 4-team alliance, and makes the 4th team into an "ugh, just play them now and take the L" team, instead of a "we can play them instead of xxxx in this situation" team.

[bkahl]

Originally Posted by evanperryg

While I agree with you, I'd like to remind you that you come off the same way on a very regular basis. As much as I find it amusing when you tell off some high-and-mighty CDer, you rarely do it with any tact at all. So, while condemning the cliques and aggressive rhetoric of CD is good, you're just as deep into it as the rest of us.

It's a Dirty Job but someone's gotta do it...

[Akash Rastogi]

Can someone give me a tl;dr of this thread? Summer CD is too much for me to actually go through.

[JABot67]

Even though we didn't make it very far, it was thrilling in 2015 Tesla to be the 4th bot on the #1 alliance along with 2481, 624, and 3847. Our strategy was to have 2481 cheesecake 3847 with some really fast can grabbers in case our alliance made Einstein, and we (2930) were to fill in the can grabbing role until 3847 was ready - probably division finals or Einstein.

This is the sort of strategic picking that the four-teams-per-alliance system allows, and I think it is awesome. How many alliances took advantage of this during this past year? Off the top of my head, 2990 didn't play a match in their division playoffs and then hit the ground running with some great defense and ball control to help 148, 1678, and 364 get within 5 points of the finals. It's all about strategy, and four team alliances allow for some pretty awesome strategies. I for one was very excited when I heard in 2014 that four team alliances were going to be a thing, and it hasn't seemed to me for even one moment that the 4th bot on the winning alliance was less of a winner. Alliances win competitions.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by wilsonmw04

That's an interesting statement. I disagree that I am bullying anyone. Insulting a team, or anyone for that matter, under the cloak of an anonymous account is indeed small. It takes little character to do that. I would have you notice that I put my name to my comments. Why won't the person in question do the same? That answer is simple, he doesn't want to receive the consequences for his statements. I am. Your opinion,however, is duly noted.

perhaps I am missing something but when did he specifically insult you/your team? Even the post this thread started with was questionably mean. In fact id go out on a limb and say you were being obnoxious even correcting him saying 1/2 instead of 2/3. First has an element of luck built in. Even Frank Merrick says that. I think you would agree that teams like 118, 195, 2056, ect have better robots then you but, you are the one hanging up the world championships banner. I don't fault you for that and I have seen your robot doing well in person multiple times but others do. Threads like this very rarely stay completely respectful you and me both know that and sadly you usually can not expect them to do so.

Just some food for thought.

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by indubitably

Directed at a member of the CD Community:


Bully Alert!!

"You are a small person. I will think of you no more after I click submit post" is hardly a killer insult. If someone is legitimately offended by that, then the internet is not the right place for them.

[EmileH]

Originally Posted by EmileH

can somebody please just close the darn thread

But in all seriousness, 1086 is a world champion. Just like 3467 was the backup of 4 Archimedes champions in 2014. They, like us, worked hard, very much so, to get that banner. This issue exists in all sports teams - do you think the backup safety of the New England Patriots was a better overall single player than the starting quarterback of the Seattle Seahawks, Russell Wilson? Of course not! But the Patriots TEAM won the Super Bowl, not just one single player. They won as a team. The Carver ALLIANCE won Einstein this year, and 1086 was a part of that alliance. They deserve their title.