Inter-District Play for 2017

[Bkeeneykid]

Posted on the FRC Blog, 8/2/16:
http://www.firstinspires.org/robotics/frc/blog/inter-district-play-for-2017

Inter-District Play for 2017
Today's Guest Blog Post is written by Miriam Somero, FIRST Robotics Competition Area Manager.

A cross-functional task force, which included volunteers from all nine FIRST Robotic Competition Districts, met to evaluate the 2016 inter district play experience and propose a plan for inter district play for 2017.

In the 2016 season, Districts collaborated with FIRST HQ to fill any “open” district event spots with teams from other districts. An “open district spot” is defined as a spot that remains open after all teams in a district have had the opportunity to sign up for their two events plus any additional plays they desire. In 2016 we had eleven district teams take advantage of this opportunity and play inter district.

In the 2017 season inter-district play will continue in the same manner as 2016.

Teams playing at a district event outside their home district will treat the out-of-district event in a similar way that an in-district team treats an additional district event, meaning no points will be earned.

1. The event will be considered an “additional event” regardless of when it actually occurs. Example: A team from Mid-Atlantic signs up for its two official Mid-Atlantic district events, one on Week 1 and one on Week 4. Additionally, the team signs up for one of the open spots in New England during Week 3. Even though the New England event is before the team’s second official Mid-Atlantic event, the event will be treated as an additional event and the team would not earn any points at the New England event. We will retain the concept of teams only being able to earn points within their own districts. Several Districts were in favor of allowing teams to earn points outside their own Districts. However, with a change of this significance, FIRST HQ wanted a strong consensus among the Districts in favor of this change before it would be considered, and that threshold was not met. This concept will be reevaluated at the end of the 2017 season.
2. Additionally, the out-of-district team will not be eligible for the three Culture Changing Awards: Chairman’s Award, Engineering Inspiration Award, or Rookie All Star. These may be earned only at events within their home district. They will be eligible to win all other awards, but again, they will not earn points for these. The task force feels strongly that these most prestigious of all FRC awards should be reserved for in-district and recognized that presenting these awards to teams from outside the districts would lead to complications at the District Championship level. This direction, though, as the one above, will be evaluated at the end of the 2017 season

The cost to register for an additional play at a district event outside a team’s home district is $1,000. Teams will continue to transport their robots to the event themselves. Each event may decide whether or not to provide drayage facilities for out-of-district teams. Drayage arrangements, if any, will be posted on the event’s website. If no drayage arrangements are available through the district, it will be the out-of-district team’s responsibility, logistically and financially, to make their own arrangements to get their robot to the event.

The registration process will be as follows:

In-District additional play registration will open Thursday, November 3rd, 2016, the same day as unrestricted registration for regionals.

Inter-District registration will begin 1 week later, Thursday, November 10th.

• All teams registering inter-district will be put onto the waitlist.

Registration closes November 21st.

Teams will be notified shortly after December 11 as to whether or not a slot is available for them.

Non-district FIRST Robotic Competition teams will continue to not be eligible to participate in events within districts.

These decisions are final for the upcoming season, but as noted above, this system will be reviewed once again at the end of the 2017. Please send feedback on possible changes to inter-district play for the 2018 season to frcteams@firstinspires.org . If you are a District team, be sure also to give your feedback to your District management, as each District has direct representation on the task force making these recommendations.

[notmattlythgoe]

Not what I was hoping for, but it is what it is.

[Jon Stratis]

It's a little surprising that only 11 teams participated in inter-district play. Is that due more to availability than interest from teams?

[Bkeeneykid]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

It's a little surprising that only 11 teams participated in inter-district play. Is that due more to availability than interest from teams?

As a lower budget team in a regional area, if there were a district close enough (for example, Texas), we would go to that in a heart beat. I find it disheartening that they still do not allow non district teams to attend district events, especially with the clarifications about earning no points. A district event would help us greatly.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid

As a lower budget team in a regional area, if there were a district close enough (for example, Texas), we would go to that in a heart beat. I find it disheartening that they still do not allow non district teams to attend district events, especially with the clarifications about earning no points. A district event would help us greatly.

It's probably been brought up before, but FIRST won't let this happen. The reason a DCMP isn't free was FIRST's decision. Charging 4k for a DCMP makes up for the fact that FIRST doesn't see 4k second regional registrations from teams in a District area.

FIRST counts on netting an extra 4k from a certain percentage (~35%) of Regional teams for second plays, just like FIRST counts netting an extra 4k from District teams for the DCMP (which happens to come out to 30-40% of teams in a given district).

Much of FIRST's operating budget is funded by FRC teams (FTC and FLL do not provide revenue to FIRST at the same level), so I don't expect to get a cheaper second play unless we go to districts.

I expect that FIRST will continue to count on netting 5-6k from all FRC teams, 4k from relatively fixed percentage (30-40%) of those teams, and 4 million dollars from FRC teams for #2champs.

-Mike

[Drakxii]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

It's probably been brought up before, but FIRST won't let this happen. The reason a DCMP isn't free was FIRST's decision. Charging 4k for a DCMP makes up for the fact that FIRST doesn't see 4k second regional registrations from teams in a District area.

FIRST counts on netting an extra 4k from a certain percentage (~35%) of Regional teams for second plays, just like FIRST counts netting an extra 4k from District teams for the DCMP (which happens to come out to 30-40% of teams in a given district).

Much of FIRST's operating budget is funded by FRC teams (FTC and FLL do not provide revenue to FIRST at the same level), so I don't expect to get a cheaper second play unless we go to districts.

I expect that FIRST will continue to count on netting 5-6k from all FRC teams, 4k from relatively fixed percentage (30-40%) of those teams, and 4 million dollars from FRC teams for #2champs.

-Mike

This begs the question, how many 2 and 3 regional teams would give up a chance to qualify for champs to save $3,000 and 1 night in a hotel, while risking that the slots are still available on Nov 10th (or later should Inter-Districts teams get dibs)?

[ASD20]

Originally Posted by Drakxii

This begs the question, how many 2 and 3 regional teams would give up a chance to qualify for champs to save $3,000 and 1 night in a hotel, while risking that the slots are still available on Nov 10th (or later should Inter-Districts teams get dibs)?

I think there are 2 groups of teams that this would be appealing to.

1. Teams who are confident that they will still qualify for champs with one less regional. This group is likely small, but prominent.
2. Teams that think they are unlikely to qualify for worlds anyways and/or don't have the money for the 2nd regional. This group is likely very large.

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by Drakxii

This begs the question, how many 2 and 3 regional teams would give up a chance to qualify for champs to save $3,000 and 1 night in a hotel, while risking that the slots are still available on Nov 10th (or later should Inter-Districts teams get dibs)?

I would kill for the chance at getting a shot at a Weeks 1-3 District Event. My team attends one Regional that has always been (and will always be for the foreseeable future) a Week 5 event. My team has not been able to go to a second Regional due to costs, but if that price point dropped by a few thousand dollars, I think we could. By the same token, we have never won our home Regional, and we have no reason to believe that we could win another Regional like Palmetto or Bayou if we were to travel there. However, if we were to get in any type of competition before our home Regional, I feel a Blue Banner might be much more attainable.

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

It's probably been brought up before, but FIRST won't let this happen. The reason a DCMP isn't free was FIRST's decision. Charging 4k for a DCMP makes up for the fact that FIRST doesn't see 4k second regional registrations from teams in a District area.

FIRST counts on netting an extra 4k from a certain percentage (~35%) of Regional teams for second plays, just like FIRST counts netting an extra 4k from District teams for the DCMP (which happens to come out to 30-40% of teams in a given district).

Much of FIRST's operating budget is funded by FRC teams (FTC and FLL do not provide revenue to FIRST at the same level), so I don't expect to get a cheaper second play unless we go to districts.

I expect that FIRST will continue to count on netting 5-6k from all FRC teams, 4k from relatively fixed percentage (30-40%) of those teams, and 4 million dollars from FRC teams for #2champs.

-Mike

So I think I understand why FIRST won't open up Districts to teams from Regionals. If they allowed this, teams that had been attending 2+ Regionals would try and switch to a cheaper District event, even if it meant they couldn't actually qualify in their district "practice" event. This would mean FIRST would be earning less revenue, and the quality of play in both the Regionals and Districts might suffer. Not entirely sure about that last statement, but I could see it happening.

However, as has been mentioned, there are teams that cannot afford a second Regional, but could afford an additional District event. In this case, if only teams that registered for one Regional qualified to pick up any leftover District spots, FIRST would, theoretically, see an increase in revenue. This should also increase level of play at the Regional level. Again, take that last statement with a grain of salt.

Is there any chance of FIRST considering this? Now at this point in time, there would probably only be a minuscule amount of teams able to take advantage of this. But as FIRST continues its transition to Districts over the next decade, it might be extremely beneficial to allow teams from Regionals to begin blending into Districts.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Bkeeneykid]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

So I think I understand why FIRST won't open up Districts to teams from Regionals. If they allowed this, teams that had been attending 2+ Regionals would try and switch to a cheaper District event, even if it meant they couldn't actually qualify in their district "practice" event. This would mean FIRST would be earning less revenue, and the quality of play in both the Regionals and Districts might suffer. Not entirely sure about that last statement, but I could see it happening.

However, as has been mentioned, there are teams that cannot afford a second Regional, but could afford an additional District event. In this case, if only teams that registered for one Regional qualified to pick up any leftover District spots, FIRST would, theoretically, see an increase in revenue. This should also increase level of play at the Regional level. Again, take that last statement with a grain of salt.

Is there any chance of FIRST considering this? Now at this point in time, there would probably only be a minuscule amount of teams able to take advantage of this. But as FIRST continues its transition to Districts over the next decade, it might be extremely beneficial to allow teams from Regionals to begin blending into Districts.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

I think you're underestimating how few teams would take advantage of this. Saving $3000 in terms of admittance costs means we have a giant budget compared to what we would use for a second regional, meaning we would go to much further expense to go to a district event.

The issue with teams currently going to regionals flooding district events is a good point though, but I doubt that's the only reason that FIRST isn't allowing regional teams to go to district events. I'd love to hear Frank or someone else in HQ's opinion and reasoning.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

So I think I understand why FIRST won't open up Districts to teams from Regionals. If they allowed this, teams that had been attending 2+ Regionals would try and switch to a cheaper District event, even if it meant they couldn't actually qualify in their district "practice" event. This would mean FIRST would be earning less revenue, and the quality of play in both the Regionals and Districts might suffer. Not entirely sure about that last statement, but I could see it happening.

However, as has been mentioned, there are teams that cannot afford a second Regional, but could afford an additional District event. In this case, if only teams that registered for one Regional qualified to pick up any leftover District spots, FIRST would, theoretically, see an increase in revenue. This should also increase level of play at the Regional level. Again, take that last statement with a grain of salt.

Is there any chance of FIRST considering this? Now at this point in time, there would probably only be a minuscule amount of teams able to take advantage of this. But as FIRST continues its transition to Districts over the next decade, it might be extremely beneficial to allow teams from Regionals to begin blending into Districts.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

Your revenue logic makes sense, except one point: For any "extra plays" in districts (3rd/4th plays, interdistrict plays, etc.), the extra play registration fee goes to the District Organization, not to FIRST. So FIRST does not see more revenue if all open district event slots get filled with interdistrict teams, but each District Organization would see additional revenue.

I think the level of play on the field always goes up as more teams get more matches/events. This trend can be seen year after year.

TL;DR, FIRST loses 4k of potential revenue for every Regional team is allowed to play at a District event. I don't see FIRST allowing this situation, at least in the short term.

-Mike

[Drakxii]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Your revenue logic makes sense, except one point: For any "extra plays" in districts (3rd/4th plays, interdistrict plays, etc.), the extra play registration fee goes to the District Organization, not to FIRST. So FIRST does not see more revenue if all open district event slots get filled with interdistrict teams, but each District Organization would see additional revenue.

I think the level of play on the field always goes up as more teams get more matches/events. This trend can be seen year after year.

TL;DR, FIRST loses 4k of potential revenue for every Regional team is allowed to play at a District event. I don't see FIRST allowing this situation, at least in the short term.

-Mike

$4,000 of perceived revenue, teams like Cougar Robotics and Full Metal Jackets might never be able to afford a second regional. Also this is under the assumption that they won't change the pricing model for regional teams.

Just a quick idea would be to set regional to district reg to Nov 14th and then charge regional teams $1.5k, with $1k of it going to FIRST and $500 to the district. Everyone wins: district teams still get first shot at inter-districts, low income regional teams can play more, FIRST gets more money, and Districts get more money.

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

Your revenue logic makes sense, except one point: For any "extra plays" in districts (3rd/4th plays, interdistrict plays, etc.), the extra play registration fee goes to the District Organization, not to FIRST. So FIRST does not see more revenue if all open district event slots get filled with interdistrict teams, but each District Organization would see additional revenue.

Ah, thank you for the information. I had no idea that districts had their own entities. On that note, are District Organizations just separate accounts within FIRST, or are they completely different legal entities?

I think the level of play on the field always goes up as more teams get more matches/events. This trend can be seen year after year.

I couldn't agree more.

TL;DR, FIRST loses 4k of potential revenue for every Regional team is allowed to play at a District event. I don't see FIRST allowing this situation, at least in the short term.

-Mike

Originally Posted by Drakxii

$4,000 of perceived revenue, teams like Cougar Robotics and Full Metal Jackets might never be able to afford a second regional. Also this is under the assumption that they won't change the pricing model for regional teams.

Just a quick idea would be to set regional to district reg to Nov 14th and then charge regional teams $1.5k, with $1k of it going to FIRST and $500 to the district. Everyone wins: district teams still get first shot at inter-districts, low income regional teams can play more, FIRST gets more money, and Districts get more money.

I would agree with Mike and say that we won't see much blending of the Regionals and Districts within the next few years. The more parties involved, the more complex everything becomes, and the longer the rollout would take. That's just how these things work.

But I do believe there is a potential solution out there, and a need to find the solution as soon as possible. There are teams out there that would pay for a practice event, and there are (maybe) events that could host these teams, allowing FIRST or the entities associated with FIRST to earn revenue, to allow FIRST to contribute and grow even more. Heck, this may be a way to bolster newly formed Districts that might have trouble filling out some of their more outlying events. But my main point is that FIRST and FIRSTers should be thinking about how to transition from the Regional system to the Districts system. At the moment, Districts are being formed after, and only after the Regional system has been proved to be untenable in a specific area. Granted, some of the Districts seemed to have been formed in a more healthy manner than others, which is a great thing. But I think if FIRST and FIRSTers in an area wait until they can't stand the Regional system to make the transition to Districts, there will be stragglers, and isolated pockets, and slowed growth in certain areas for years and years and years to come. So I would love to see solutions as how to blend and smooth the break between Regionals and Districts so that everyone can start to see the heightened levels of competitive play, intellectual challenge, and inspiration that FIRST can bring.

[Knufire]

Originally Posted by Cothron Theiss

Ah, thank you for the information. I had no idea that districts had their own entities. On that note, are District Organizations just separate accounts within FIRST, or are they completely different legal entities?

They are different legal entities. Some have likened the district model to FRC's version of franchising. This is part of the large number of the behind-the-scene changes that come along with a region switching to the district system.

[plnyyanks]

Originally Posted by Knufire

They are different legal entities. Some have likened the district model to FRC's version of franchising. This is part of the large number of the behind-the-scene changes that come along with a region switching to the district system.

And I'll reference a prior post about some of those behind the scenes changes:

Originally Posted by plnyyanks

I'll elaborate on some of the behind the scenes changes, for the benefit of those who don't know (and are part of today's lucky ten thousand!).

The basic plan goes something like this...

1. Start a company (most likely a 501(3)(c)) to run your district. This can either be a continuation of an existing FIRST in <wherever>, or some new entity. For example, Virginia FIRST took on responsibility for the the Chesapeake District, while New England started their own entity.
2. Find people to work at said company to do all the things on this list.
3. Sign a Memorandum of Understanding with FIRST HQ so your company can operate FRC events on their behalf.
4. Start planning events... Let's say 12 district events, which nicely works out to 2 events/week for 6 weeks (whatever the number ends up being, there needs to be enough spots for each team to be guaranteed two events each). Plus a district championship, so 13 events total. So, x13...
   • You need a venue
   • You need to get the field to/from the venue
   • You need a full crew of volunteers and to feed them for a weekend.
   • You need an A/V setup
   • You'll probably need a generator, since most high schools can't meet the power requirements for the pits
   • All the media the goes along with an event (webcast, website, social accounts, etc.)
   • You'll need people to plan/run the event. With regionals, FIRST works with an event management company to do a lot of the legwork. In districts, you'll have to do it on your own.
   • Read the District Planning Guide and do all the things it says.
   • Find money/sponsorship to pay for all of the above
5. 13 events means you'll need two fields. So you'll have to purchase two fields at about $25,000 each, plus two sets of road cases to keep the fields in. You'll also need a place to store them when not in use.

I'm sure I'm missing stuff, but as you can see, it's a pretty substantial undertaking. This post/thread is a great resource as well.