Districts vs. Traditional Debate 8/16 830pm EST

[Tyler Olds]

Calling all FRC Fans!

Where do you stand on Districts vs. the Traditional event structure?

On Tuesday 8/16 starting at 830pm EST FUN Spotlight will bring on two guests each supporting a side to discuss and debate their views of which structure is the best fit for their area and all of FRC.

We Need Your Help! Please submit Questions and Discussions for our Panelists here or email firstupdatesnow@gmail.com

Guests:
Michael Corsetto: Drive Coach for FRC1678 Citrus Circuits

Tyler Nunemaker: FRC Referee at GKC

Watch Live: www.twitch.tv/firstupdatesnow
Archived Shows: www.youtube.com/c/firstupdatesnow

[Pauline Tasci]

Oh I cannot wait for this!

[ASD20]

Is there a reason you aren't calling it districts vs. regionals?

[marshall]

Originally Posted by ASD20

Is there a reason you aren't calling it districts vs. regionals?

Because controversy sells... duh!

Seriously though, this seems a little staged or at least forced... I propose a new title "A reasonable discussion about the merits of differing competition models for high school competitive robotics"... ok, I shouldn't name things.

[frcguy]

Before I opened the thread I thought to myself how Mike Corsetto would make a great guest host for such a show. I'm really happy to see he will be hosting, as I couldn't think of someone more passionate about the district system or FIRST in general. Definitely tuning in for this one!

[Lil' Lavery]

Why is it that neither guest is from an area that uses the district format?

[Anupam Goli]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Why is it that neither guest is from an area that uses the district format?

I'd love to see Jim Zondag take on a district naysayer, but that might not be "a fair fight"

[Tyler Olds]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

Why is it that neither guest is from an area that uses the district format?

Our Co-Host Collin is from Indiana and will have a few words to say leading into the discussion.

Thank you to those who have emailed in. As we start to put together the show doc with questions for our guests, please keep emailing or submit on here.

[IKE]

What percentage of teams in your area are 1 and dones (ie 1 event).

Do districts cause top teams to be less competitive? Think 2014 can races regional teams vs. Districts.

What positives and negatives come from only winners advance (regional format).

Are 2nd pick winners being cheated in district system? Some will not advance to Worlds even though they won an event.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by IKE

Are 2nd pick winners being cheated in district system? Some will not advance to Worlds even though they won an event.

Comparatively, is one of the goals of the district system to promote the event winners to higher levels, or is the goal to promote the best teams to higher levels? I don't know for sure, but I'd argue the latter. And sometimes event winners and the best teams are not always one in the same. So I wouldn't say anyone is being cheated out of anything. I would think that winning a single event shouldn't mean you're entitled to play at a higher level of play.

Being invited to the world championship shows that you've achieved what FIRST intends to celebrate. Would FIRST celebrate winning more than celebrating effective execution? I don't know the answer, but it's something to consider.

[IKE]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

Comparatively, is one of the goals of the district system to promote the event winners to higher levels, or is the goal to promote the best teams to higher levels? ...snip...

Being invited to the world championship shows that you've achieved what FIRST intends to celebrate. Would FIRST celebrate winning more than celebrating effective execution? I don't know the answer, but it's something to consider.

Exactly the sort of discussion my question I hope fosters. Promoting criteria can be argued whether you want to recognize a job well done (but not necessarily a win) vs. inspire the back end pick to become a higher performer in the future.

There are/were real players in this debate when Michigan switched over, and when the District organizers came together to develop the points scheme for promotion. I have talked to many of those persons personally and they have very interesting points that I would love for a larger audience to have heard.

[Anthony Galea]

What are your thoughts on interdistrict play, which allows teams to compete at a 'throwaway' district event to get a full event of drivers practice, while teams that can't travel to an interdistrict event but can play a third district event in district are not allowed to designate their last two events as their points events (or whatever two they want, decided before the season starts) to allow the opportunity to get driver practice like these other teams?

[gblake]

Don't forget to frame your questions using the context of Traditional vs District tournaments.

[Brian Maher]

Disclaimer: the contents of this post are my personal opinions and do not reflect the opinions of the mentors or students of teams 1257 or 2791 who are not me.

Originally Posted by IKE

Are 2nd pick winners being cheated in district system? Some will not advance to Worlds even though they won an event.

District Perspective

I have firsthand experience as one of those second pick winners in the district system, with 1257 at the 2014 Clifton District Event.

Do I feel cheated about not qualifying for Worlds then and there? Heck no. I will be the first to tell you that our status as the second pick of the winning second alliance did not demonstrate that we were capable of competing at anywhere near a World Championship level. We were picked for defense. Our robot barely touched the ball during elims, because we had no manipulator of any kind. We were just a reasonably well-driven drivebase.

One of my favorite aspects of the district model is the District Championship. It exists as an intermediate level for teams to prove themselves. For the most part, if a team wins an event, they will qualify for their DCMP. While it is challenging to plan for a DCMP trip on short notice, it is nowhere near the challenge of planning for STL. Once a team is there, if they have a less-impressive District Event record, they can prove that they deserve to compete at Worlds by performing well at the higher level of play. Conversely, if a team had a strong record at the District level, an okay showing at the DCMP will often lock in their spot.

With our newly attached catapult and some luck, we were able to rank #2 at the MAR Championship. We lost in quarterfinals to a well-constructed #7 alliance. We did not qualify for Champs.

Being able to compete with so many teams we looked up to and facing the challenge of earning a spot at Champs made MAR Champs 2014 (especially after going unpicked at both of our 2013 events) such an amazing experience for our team. It was far better than receiving an invitation to and event we would have been slaughtered at, or had to decline due to financial concerns. To this day, it has been far the single most inspiring event I've ever been to. It made me want to learn all I could about FRC, to help get my team back to DCMP and someday to Worlds. I am grateful for that District Championship; it's what got me hooked on FIRST.

This season, with consistent success at our MAR events, 1257 was ready to compete at Worlds. While we were close in 2014 and 2015, we did not have Championship-caliber robots. If we had made it to Champs, I would have felt like we were a fluke.

To reinforce my point of District Championships serving as a chance for teams to prove themselves, here are a few examples from MAR this year:

• 5624: winning first pick at both their district events, ranked 48 / 60 and unpicked at MAR Champs. Qualified for Worlds due to their success in district play.
• 1712: second pick of quarterfinalist #7 alliance and second pick of semifinalist #5 alliance at their district events; they demonstrated they could play at a high level at MAR Champs, captaining the #7 alliance to upset the #2 alliance. Qualified for Worlds on the strength of their MAR CMP showing, and captained the #6 alliance on Hopper.

TL;DR: District Championships exist as a chance for teams to be inspired and to prove themselves before qualifying for CMP.

Regional Perspective

I'd like to tweak IKE's question to illustrate the flip side of the coin:

Are semifinalist captains and first picks being cheated in regional system? Some will not advance to Worlds even though they may be among the most competitive robots at the event.

While I do not want to sound hostile, I want to show that the exact opposite question can also be asked about regional teams who may feel "cheated".

As a transplant from the district to the regional model, it strikes me as counter-intuitive how often competitive robots miss Champs because they were not on the right alliance to make it to finals.

I do not intend to insinuate that the teams who qualified for Champs at 2791's events, or other events, did not deserve it or their playoff achievements.

My proposed solution, while it is not perfect, is to award wildcards based on District Points earned at the event, not finalist alliance position. The District Points system encompasses all facets of the competition: qualification matches, alliance selection, playoff results, and awards. FIRST trusts this system to recognize achievement in districts. Why won't they at regionals?

TL;DR: It is also essential to ask if the current system is fair to regional teams with good robots, and district points should be used to give wildcards.

Two Questions for the FUN Crew

Is the district model more effective at advancing competitive teams, particularly strong semifinalist captains and first picks?

Is the Finalist Alliance position the best criterion for awarding wildcards, or should it be based on a more holistic approach such as the District Point rubric?

[Kevin Leonard]

Originally Posted by BMSOTM

District Perspective
With our newly attached catapult and some luck, we were able to rank #2 at the MAR Championship. We lost in quarterfinals to a well-constructed #7 alliance. We did not qualify for Champs.

"Well-constructed" alliance is a funny way of saying "3 of the 4 best robots in MAR that year"

Regional Perspective

My proposed solution, while it is not perfect, is to award wildcards based on District Points earned at the event, not finalist alliance position. The District Points system encompasses all facets of the competition: qualification matches, alliance selection, playoff results, and awards. FIRST trusts this system to recognize achievement in districts. Why won't they at regionals?

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