Moving Championships back

[EricH]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Your seniors leave just because they graduate? You might want to fix that. After spending 6 weeks building, and another 8 weeks competing and iterating why would you not go to world's just because you graduated?

There are possibly a number of reasons:

Summer job, getting a head start on college, taking a break from school (hey, if you had a chance to get out of there, you'd take it, right? ), or just plain school policies. I believe that someone noted above that schools may not allow alumni to be treated as students, or support the team at all after the end of the school year.

Also, there's a very gray area with respect to the rules of the competition, for any seniors on the drive team that might graduate before a May Champs event: Drivers and HPs are pre-college by definition. Whether that includes students who have graduated high school and have yet to attend college has not been asked, as far as I know; should the move happen I'm sure someone will think to ask the question.

[GeeTwo]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Your seniors leave just because they graduate? You might want to fix that. After spending 6 weeks building, and another 8 weeks competing and iterating why would you not go to world's just because you graduated?

My point was that they may not be allowed to travel as part of the team, as described earlier - we have not investigated this issue. Events that are outside of the school year are not under close observation by the school board, but if we were to go to CMP after the last day of school for seniors but before the last day of school for everyone else, we would probably have difficulty with them using team transportation and lodging, at the very least. We have also had several seniors who went to basic taining or another job very close to their graduation, so close as to miss the team banquet in May.

Edit - Oh wow, how ninja'd on this. Slidell does not have any college or University. Most of our graduates pursuing STEM degrees go to LA Tech in Ruston (5 hours away), with UL Lafayette a second choice (3 hours away). LSU, SEL, and UNO are closer, but are all better known here as party or liberal arts colleges. We have never had a veteran mentor attend more than a score of team meetings after graduation. The best we've had was Gixxy, the team founder (also my son), who mentored the summer following graduation, and the next summer, and also attended a few other meetings that fell during LA Tech holidays. My best estimate for him is 16. Otherwise, I cannot think of any who have come back for more than about six meetings, certainly not to provide any real mentoring. Slidell is a bedroom community, and while there are those few whose family has been here for five or more generations, most of us arrived in the last sixty years. (In the case of the Michels, we moved to Slidell in June 2001, just fifteen years ago). I do not expect any of my children to live in Slidell in 2025.

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by GeeTwo

High school graduation in St. Tammany schools in 2017 is May 3 through May 9th. The seinior's last day is somewhat before that. If CMP were moved back even one more week from St. Louis, we would probably lose all our seniors.

Wow, that's amazing that LA is so out of sync with the rest of the country. I see the state track championship is the first weekend in May, so Champs could be held that late. (TX may have a similar problem.) But yes, that puts a constraint on moving it back.

[Harrison.Smith]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

A later end to the season is not such a crazy idea--can we say "spring sports?" Almost every high school in the US has state championship events i late May and early June. (I think Texas may be an exception with mid-May championships, but Texas can just decide to secede if this is a problem ;^)). All of those athletes are studying for final exams (and the distance runners and swimmers have GPAs that are just as good).

As for FRC state champs, don't you think that they'd just swap the dates to early May or late April instead to fill the void?

As for post-school championships, there are many national sports championships held in June and July. But there may be a problem with schools covering team expenses. On the other hand, how many FRC programs are formally embedded into schools the same way that sports teams are? In my experience, they run like clubs, and many musical and performing arts clubs have summer tours.

I meant robotics state champs (MO, MN, OH, CT, maybe Texas next year), but other sports is a good point. While with most spring sports in Texas the state champs are the 2nd and 3rd week of May, baseball and softball are after the school year ended. Seniors on those teams were able to travel and compete.

[dirtbikerxz]

Originally Posted by Harrison.Smith

I meant robotics state champs (MO, MN, OH, CT, maybe Texas next year), but other sports is a good point. While with most spring sports in Texas the state champs are the 2nd and 3rd week of May, baseball and softball are after the school year ended. Seniors on those teams were able to travel and compete.

'Texas is stupid *you all guys* do things differently and wrong' (as stated by a texan) (please don't kill me texans )

[R2D2DOC]

Just some thoughts for your consideration. . . . some observations. . . .that's all.

The objective was to spread FIRST to all high schools. That's a good reason for districts, and associated district championships. To provide a CMP experience to as many as possible, multiple CMP events are required. So, FIRST is going through growth pains. The program may need to settle with a mix of districts and regionals based on team density and logistics. Some new rules of district-regional crossover would need to be established. Multiple CMPs may be the "new normal". I was a mentor for two years in regionals and two years of districts in Michigan. I have been a judge ever since (districts, district CMP and World CMP), it's a new normal.

If a single CMP is desired, the season must be longer to accommodate an extra tier of playoff events. Difficult since FIRST is international. I'm not sure of how many high school based team based sports have a national championship, let alone, a world championship. Little League Baseball is over the summer anyway.

The issue of a longer season is the issue of this thread. All sights appear to be on the end of the season. What about the beginning? This would place more pressure on the GDC. Make the games a little easier so the build season could be reduced, giving more flexibility at the end of season.

Kick-off in December is not practical, although, a number of high school activities already may start in some form over the holidays, such as spring musicals (set building, auditions). This may be unpopular, but there are already challenges during the build/competition seasons as it is. Could this alleviate some of that pressure?

Again, just some ideas to consider, and nothing more.

[SpaceBiz]

It is probably worth mentioning that as a distance runner my coach would definitely make me choose between robotics and outdoor track if champs impacted the running championship season. It is already hard enough to convince him champs is more important than one of our midseason invitationals. Granted the real distance running season is cross country, but that is another story.

[Knufire]

If a longer competition season is required, I think it would be more practical to start build season earlier. Do kickoff around December 1st, bag robots over Christmas break, and resume in January. For 2016-2017, I'd say Kickoff on Dec 3rd, Sprint 1 from Dec 3rd to Dec 19th, and Sprint 2 from Jan 3rd to 31st.

[Cothron Theiss]

Originally Posted by Knufire

If a longer competition season and is required, I think it would be more practical to start build season earlier. Do kickoff around December 1st, bag robots over Christmas break, and resume in January. For 2016-2017, I'd say Kickoff on Dec 3rd, Sprint 1 from Dec 3rd to Dec 19th, and Spring 2 from Jan 3rd to 31st.

This is probably the best suggestion I've seen. This does mean that northern teams will be fighting against snow, but we already see that quite a bit. Once football season completely ends (most state championships are around mid to late November if I remember correctly) the winter sports are just getting started. This may even make things easier on student athletes, because their coaches might be more lenient if build season is at the beginning of the winter season and not the end.

[efoote868]

Maybe FIRST could grow so big that AP testing has to schedule around them...

[angelah]

At ISEF (much bigger crossover with AP exams than FIRST) students take their APs right at the event. That way they don't need to schedule the event around them. That might be a future option for FIRST.

[Jon Stratis]

Originally Posted by Citrus Dad

As for FRC state champs, don't you think that they'd just swap the dates to early May or late April instead to fill the void?

State Championships (like MN, OH, TX) are unofficial, off-season events. In order to move them up, FIRST would have to allow teams to unbag their robots for them, and then rebag them for Champs, something that currently would not be allowed.

So, would that be fair to teams in areas without State Championships?

[Drakxii]

If we need/want a longer season I think the best option would be to move the kickoff to mid October, Bag & Tag to mid December, start regionals & district events in January, have District Champs on what is now week one and then have worlds champs in what is now week 4 & 5. This way there are gaps between events and champs for both levels.

This way no trouble with AP tests or finals and state champs can be held during the school year.

One issue with this idea is that FTC season would have to start sooner or be shortened as they have their super regionals in march currently and I am not sure about the FLL season schedule.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

So, would that be fair to teams in areas without State Championships?

The concept of 'fair' left the building a loooong time ago.

Also: I would be in favor of a shortened build season. Four may be a bit aggressive; perhaps five weeks?

[Citrus Dad]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

State Championships (like MN, OH, TX) are unofficial, off-season events. In order to move them up, FIRST would have to allow teams to unbag their robots for them, and then rebag them for Champs, something that currently would not be allowed.

So, would that be fair to teams in areas without State Championships?

One answer is that Districts would solve that problem directly. Both MN and TX seem to be considering this option.

The second is to push the state champs to after the FRC Champs (or Super Regionals).

Either way, I don't think the existence of unofficial off season events should constrain moving Champs to the benefit of all teams if that's so determined.