[FRC Blog] 2017 FIRST Championships Allocations for Districts

[Hallry]

Posted on the FRC Blog, 8/31/16: http://www.firstinspires.org/robotic...-for-districts

2017 FIRST Championships Allocations for Districts

Written by Frank Merrick, 2016 AUG 31.

Below you will find a short version of changes to the 2017 FIRST Championships District allocations and reasoning for those changes. If you want the dance version*, with more words and examples, click here.

There has been a concern raised about the fact that Districts get both a guaranteed percent representation at FIRST Championship and are allowed to send non-qualified teams from the waitlist to FIRST Championship. For the majority of Districts, this means over-representation at Championship from a strictly percent-of-teams approach, compared to Regional teams.

FIRST HQ values the opportunity for non-qualified teams to attend FIRST Championship, so we want to keep that option in place for Districts, but we do need to make an adjustment. So, for 2017, the initial value of the ‘available slots’ calculation used to determine District allocations, rather than being full Championship capacity, will be 10% less than full Championship capacity.

Also, if we were to use the percentage of teams from each District compared to all FRC, along with the total number of available slots at both FIRST Championships combined, in determining the number of District slots available at each of the two Championships, the St Louis Championship would be over-subscribed, or very close to it. Instead, the formula for 2017 will use the percent representation of each District compared to the number of FRC teams just within the geography assigned to the District’s home Championship, and that percentage will be applied just to the number of available slots at that particular Championship.

Even with these changes in place, if 2017 were to look like 2016 with respect to team counts, all Districts will have at least one more guaranteed slot at their Championship than they did in 2016. In addition, as noted above, they will still have access to non-qualified waitlist slots.

Estimates are below. Please note these values will of course shift with the actual numbers for 2017:



As with all things in this very new situation in 2017, we will be reviewing results and considering additional changes for 2018 and beyond.

Still TL;DR




Frank



*Do they still make dance versions?

**This assumption is guaranteed to be wrong, so look in the 2017 manual when it comes out for the actual numbers.

[Jon Stratis]

So, who wants to do the math to figure out how many estimated waitlist spots each champs gets now?

[Ernst]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

So, who wants to do the math to figure out how many estimated waitlist spots each champs gets now?

I'm not sure about the exact number of Regionals, but:

That's 201 District spots at HalfchampsN and ~20 Regionals getting 7 each. So that leaves around 59 waitlist spots.

HalfchampsS would have 88 District spots and ~29 Regionals? So they'd get 109ish waitlist spots.

[Sperkowsky]

Ok I like this a lot gets rid of my concern about our waitlist tokens becoming useless. Thanks frank!

[AGPapa]

This was a predictable change, but I'm still disappointed.

Originally Posted by AGPapa

FIRST will almost certainly change how districts qualify teams to limit how many teams the northern regions send

Under the old system the North Championship would have ~265 teams from district areas but under this system they'll only have 201. Given that district teams are much more competitive than waitlist teams, this will seriously decrease the quality of championship play.

I had assumed that the purpose of waitlist spots was to fill the gaps when regionals didn't send enough teams to fill out the championship, but FIRST doesn't seem to share that view. What is the point of waitlist teams? Why do the extra 64 waitlist teams deserve to go to the North Championship more than the district points teams do? Shouldn't we reward success on and off the field more than a lottery?

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by AGPapa

This was a predictable change, but I'm still disappointed.





Under the old system the North would send ~265 teams from district areas, but under this system they'll only send 215. Given that district teams are much more competitive than waitlist teams, this will seriously decrease the quality of championship play.

I had assumed that the purpose of waitlist spots was to fill the gaps when regionals didn't send enough teams to fill out the championship, but FIRST doesn't seem to share that view. What is the point of waitlist teams? Why do the extra 50 waitlist teams deserve to go to the North Championship than the district points teams do? Shouldn't we reward success on and off the field more than a lottery?

Teams getting the "championship experience"


It may be a good thing text doesn't convey tone.

[Sperkowsky]

Originally Posted by Andrew Schreiber

Teams getting the "championship experience"


It may be a good thing text doesn't convey tone.

Listen I am from a team who could seriously benefit from going to Champs and one with 8 waitlist tokens.

We have been a team since 2009 and have never even come close to qualifying for Champs. Many members despite my best efforts still don't realize how big first really is. The experience of Champs would certainly seriously help our team.

The reason half Champs became a thing was to give more teams the Champs experience. Before this change district teams did have an easier time qualifying despite the wildcard change. Now it's pretty balanced. Don't forget waitlist tokens can go to regional and district teams.

Now I still support 1 Champs but, if we are going to have 2 let's have other teams like mine and maybe ones even farther away from breaking through get a taste of what's out there.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Listen I am from a team who could seriously benefit from going to Champs and one with 8 waitlist tokens.

We have been a team since 2009 and have never even come close to qualifying for Champs. Many members despite my best efforts still don't realize how big first really is. The experience of Champs would certainly seriously help our team.

The reason half Champs became a thing was to give more teams the Champs experience. Before this change district teams did have an easier time qualifying despite the wildcard change. Now it's pretty balanced. Don't forget waitlist tokens can go to regional and district teams.

Now I still support 1 Champs but, if we are going to have 2 let's have other teams like mine and maybe ones even farther away from breaking through get a taste of what's out there.

As far as I am aware admission to The Championship Event has been and will continue to be free.

[FarmerJohn]

Originally Posted by Sperkowsky

Listen I am from a team who could seriously benefit from going to Champs and one with 8 waitlist tokens.

That's the problem with millennials these days!!! They think they deserve everything and that the world should be handed to them on a silver platter. Everyone wants a participation trophy because all that matters is that they "tried" and there's no such thing as "winners". Back in my day you didn't have a right to go to a championship, you had to earn your way there. When I coached my son's little league we never made it to the state championships because we weren't good enough. After four years of not qualifying do you think I complained that my team was missing out from the "championship experience" because they weren't playing well enough? Of course not! We didn't need a championship to recognize the kids on our team and we sure didn't need one to inspire them. If you want to go to the championships then work harder, don't try and lessen the value of the championships by letting everyone in.

[EricH]

Originally Posted by PayneTrain

As far as I am aware admission to The Championship Event has been and will continue to be free.

However, many teams and school districts consider that if you're not going to go to compete, you shouldn't go at all. Not all, but many. And it's not like the Championship has been within a few hours of NYC in the last 20 years--Orlando, Houston, Atlanta, St. Louis, St. Louis/Houston... It's hard enough to convince a district that you should go when you win your way there, imagine doing it without that win.

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

After four years of not qualifying do you think I complained that my team was missing out from the "championship experience" because they weren't playing well enough? Of course not! We didn't need a championship to recognize the kids on our team and we sure didn't need one to inspire them. If you want to go to the championships then work harder, don't try and lessen the value of the championships by letting everyone in.

Calm down. THIS Championship is about inspiration. If you're going to complain about non-competitive teams going, you need to start complaining to HQ. HQ has, for better or worse, determined that all teams should at least have the chance to go every 4 years on average, and has set up their systems to allow/encourage that. If it was all about the most competitive team, they'd have kept it locked down at 400 teams and tightened the selection criteria. Back before my time, all you had to do was register and go! Then once every team had a regional in reasonable range, you had to do a regional before you could do the nationals, but every team could go. And then they had to trim it down even more, so if you didn't win your way in and you were an even team, you could go in even years (and same for odd teams in odd years). Then they had to cut the qualification even more--now they want to make sure that everybody has a chance to go every 4 years. That's an HQ decision.

[PayneTrain]

Originally Posted by EricH

However, many teams and school districts consider that if you're not going to go to compete, you shouldn't go at all. Not all, but many. And it's not like the Championship has been within a few hours of NYC in the last 20 years--Orlando, Houston, Atlanta, St. Louis, St. Louis/Houston... It's hard enough to convince a district that you should go when you win your way there, imagine doing it without that win.

The reality that a team that doesn't qualify for an event might find it difficult to attend an event, and the reality that admission to FRC events are free of charge are not mutually exclusive.

FIRST is not preventing 2869 from attending the event, but they are going to make the chance of the 27th best team in Chesapeake more difficult than the 41st team in the PNW, even though CHS is 85% the roster count as PNW.

I've accepted that someone has poured water all over my cereal, but they didn't have to pee in it too.

[Christopher149]

The decision to calculate the percentage based on teams only in the geographic region of your Champ definitely helps MI logistics-wise.

Without the change, MI would send about 411/3130*804 = 105 teams to NorthCMP, or more teams than at MSC the last couple years. With that change and the 10% one, it's only 79 teams qualifying, so MSC is not irrelevant in qualifying to NorthCMP.

[Monochron]

Originally Posted by FarmerJohn

That's the problem with millennials these days!!! . . . If you want to go to the championships then work harder, don't try and lessen the value of the championships by letting everyone in.

It's hard to tell if this is sarcasm, but I don't think Sperkowski is even a Millennial. I am, and I'm at least 10 years older than he is.
Anyway, if you think the CMP has the same purpose as a little league championship, you may want to read up a bit on what FIRST's goals are. However much you might want it to be about earning your way, FIRST doesn't want that.

[Michael Corsetto]

Originally Posted by Monochron

It's hard to tell if this is sarcasm, but I don't think Sperkowski is even a Millennial. I am, and I'm at least 10 years older than he is.
Anyway, if you think the CMP has the same purpose as a little league championship, you may want to read up a bit on what FIRST's goals are. However much you might want it to be about earning your way, FIRST doesn't want that.

What is FIRST's stated purpose of the CMP(s)?

If FIRST "doesn't want [it to be about earning your way], how come over 75% of teams will earn there way to a CMP in 2017?

FIRST said somewhere that they want every FRC team to have the opportunity to attend CMP once every four years. What does that matter if CMP is too expensive for lower resource teams to attend? Will FIRST reduce the registration cost ever?

What are the reasons for FRC wait list spots, but no other FIRST or VEX program to my knowledge intentionally preserves this percentage of wait list spots for their culminating events?

Things to think about. I think there are plenty of ways to skin a cat, with or without tons of wait list spots at CMP.

-Mike

[MechEng83]

Originally Posted by Michael Corsetto

What are the reasons for FRC wait list spots, but no other FIRST or VEX program to my knowledge intentionally preserves this percentage of wait list spots for their culminating events?

I've heard rumors that FTC will be expanding slots (since now there's 2 half-champs) but rather than increase the number of teams qualifying into/out of the super-regionals, they will do a waitlist. Just a rumor though...