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Unread 07-01-2017, 18:38
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

As my team discussed this topic, it was brought up that if scoring gears has the most point potential, why wouldn't everyone do it? The answer seems to be that gearing is an intimidating task that may prove to be much more difficult than previously thought.

On the other hand, dumping fuel to achieve the boiler ranking point is comparatively less difficult. However, the big thing we seemed to realize was that while scoring ranking points via fuel may get you to playoffs, it just isn't enough to win playoffs against teams scoring ranking points via gears. A gearing ranking point is worth 100 pts, while the fuel point translates to 20 points; leaving a gap of 80 points at the very least, which would be extremely difficult to overcome by only scoring fuel.

While it may seem undercosted point wise, strategy will be crucial as fuel provides a comparatively easier way to rack up ranking points, which is what really matters in terms of your shot at playoffs if you may not be able to always win matches point wise (similar to breaching the defenses last year)
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Unread 07-01-2017, 19:14
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollien View Post
I think this depends on the geometry of the funnel. I can't find it in the field drawings, but it would be nice to see someone calculate the maximum possible number of fuel.
We tried to do this and came up with some rough numbers.

The Cylinder itself appears to be ~ 1.78 cubic feet, and the funnel is ~ 1.63. Assuming that the trapezoid below the cylinder is used for processing fuel, thats ~ 3.41 cubic feet total.

The large clear bins used in the videos look like they hold approximately 50 balls, and are 4.24 cubic feet.

Using this, the number of balls that could be held in the boiler stack is approximately 40. If you were shooting at a rate of 6 balls per second non-stop, the boiler stack would fill up in 40 seconds. So you need 240 balls going in non-stop.

Obviously the voids in a rectangular container will be different than the voids in a cylindrical container, but it's close enough for me tonight. There are bigger fish to fry, like figuring out how to flood the boiler in the first place.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 14:31
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

I was wondering, can someone point to me the rule that states only one gear at a time in teleop? Also anyone up for discussing strategy? I'm stuck in a longggg car ride and wanna bounce some ideas.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 14:36
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack3637 View Post
I was wondering, can someone point to me the rule that states only one gear at a time in teleop? Also anyone up for discussing strategy? I'm stuck in a longggg car ride and wanna bounce some ideas.
A search for "gear" in the rules found this in about 10 seconds:

G27. One-GEAR limit. ROBOTS may not control more than one GEAR at a time.
Violation: FOUL. If strategic, TECH FOUL and YELLOW CARD.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 15:30
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

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Originally Posted by Trey178 View Post
Since the boiler takes about 2 seconds to process fuel...
Where are you pulling this from? The boiler goals process 4-5 Fuel per second as stated during the webcast.
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Unread 08-01-2017, 18:27
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

There are separate counters for the high and low efficiency goals. Each capable of an average of 5 fuel/second.
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Unread 07-01-2017, 18:05
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe G. View Post
Just because a task closely resembles the "main" task of old games, doesn't mean it's the "main" task of this one.

Also, fuel has an effectively infinite scoring potential, whereas gears are finite. True, the gears limit is relatively high and will take many alliances the full match or more to reach, but others will be able to finish them off with plenty of time to spare. In these matches, where both alliances do this, fuel will be the difference maker.

Additionally, there's two very key differences between fuel and most recent shooting tasks: the ball is tiny compared to the robot, and storage is unlimited. Unlike recent games, and especially unlike last year, where you had to make every shot count, pure rate of fire is arguably more important than actual accuracy, and the size difference opens up some interesting possible ways to make this happen.
Yes but you can calculate the top amount of fuel that can be processed and even then in perfect conditions accuracy and speed it is marginally better than gears.
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Unread 08-01-2017, 12:59
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe G. View Post
Just because a task closely resembles the "main" task of old games, doesn't mean it's the "main" task of this one.

Also, fuel has an effectively infinite scoring potential, whereas gears are finite. True, the gears limit is relatively high and will take many alliances the full match or more to reach, but others will be able to finish them off with plenty of time to spare. In these matches, where both alliances do this, fuel will be the difference maker.

Additionally, there's two very key differences between fuel and most recent shooting tasks: the ball is tiny compared to the robot, and storage is unlimited. Unlike recent games, and especially unlike last year, where you had to make every shot count, pure rate of fire is arguably more important than actual accuracy, and the size difference opens up some interesting possible ways to make this happen.
Don't forget that there's less risk associated with fuel than there is with gears. With gears, you MUST reach a certain quantity of gears to get those big points. With fuel, even if you miss the RP you still get points. Both gamepieces have finite "steps" at which you get your next point, but those "steps" are much closer together with fuel. As such, fuel is the "low risk, low reward" elims strategy, while gears are the "high risk, high reward" strategy.
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Unread 09-01-2017, 11:35
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

How it is now can change, they could lower the required fuel for the 1 Q pt. But for now, a strategi=y is coming to light that my team, team 2544, is seeing. Hording fuel. Crazy at first, but can work. If you have an all gear team, the 12 required is possible, and if 3 can be put on in auto, that is 120 pts right there. I digress. If you shove much fuel into your launchpad, and you do not release your fuel you have got from the boiler, you can starve the other team. If you could make a pile of fuel near the boiler, you could in fact make a pile they can not touch and possible start falling into the boiler. Fuel is lomited, so if you starve the opposite alliance, and have a spot-on gear alliance, you will win.

Also, the fuel will unintenally block the opponents from getting gears from their shoots on your side. :}
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Unread 09-01-2017, 11:45
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

See 3.1 and the Loading Lane and 3.11.5 for the Return Bins. The red alliance human player is in charge of the return totes collecting balls scored in the blue alliance's boiler. The blue alliance can only access the overflow totes. You cannot prevent the other alliance from using fuel recycled from your boiler.
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Unread 12-01-2017, 15:50
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

If they are not scored, but simplky kept in the boiler area, the other team can't access it.
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Unread 09-01-2017, 11:00
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Re: Fuel Seems Undercosted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Carmain View Post
Does anyone else feel that Fuel is under costed in this game?

You can put in 120 high efficiency or 360 low efficiency Fuel to get the same amount of points as one gear in teleop. (I will concede that there is one QP for Fuel that would be valuable)

Plus, would the field be able to count 360 balls in 150 seconds (full match)?
It is probably undercosted due to its abundance
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