Go to Post Fame... Fortune... Bleh I'm inspired and thats all that matters to me - Noah Melamed [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > Competition > Rules/Strategy
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
View Poll Results: Fuel vs. Gears
Fuel 121 28.34%
Gears 306 71.66%
Voters: 427. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 5 votes, 4.60 average. Display Modes
  #61   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 08-01-2017, 22:17
chrisrin chrisrin is offline
Registered User
FRC #4915 (Spartronics)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Rookie Year: 2016
Location: Bainbridge Island, WA
Posts: 11
chrisrin is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

What assumptions are folks making as far as achievable success % shooting high fuel goals given the type of ball, size & height of the goal opening, etc.? For a top high-shooting team vs. average high-shooting team? I've seen 70% as a target - what about that?

Also, shooting rate (balls-per-sec) projections for top team vs. average team? Target the max processing rate of 5 per sec? Seems like teams may need to shoot 1 at a time until aimed and then turn on a more rapid fire mode.
Reply With Quote
  #62   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 00:32
Zebra_Fact_Man's Avatar
Zebra_Fact_Man Zebra_Fact_Man is offline
]\/[ Go Blue!
AKA: Solomon
FRC #1076 (Pi Hi Samurai)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Rookie Year: 2006
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 473
Zebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant futureZebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant futureZebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant futureZebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant futureZebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant futureZebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant futureZebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant futureZebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant futureZebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant futureZebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant futureZebra_Fact_Man has a brilliant future
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I fully expect Einstein alliances to put 100+ balls in the high goal in auto.
I'm gunna go the opposite route and say NO alliance ever scores 100 high goal balls in auto during an official FIRST event.

100 balls would require 2 robots to each shoot with a minimum 83.3% shot accuracy (more if you don't get all the balls from the hopper), and only gives you 4 seconds to travel to the hopper, collect the balls, and aim. I just don't see 2 robot of this caliber/skillset. ending up on the same alliance.
__________________
My Journey in FIRST:

Mentor/Coach/Engineer
2014-2017: Team 1076 - Pi Hi Samurai
____ 2014: Team 5220 - The Rockets
2009-2014: Team 313 - The Bionic Union/Bionic Zebras
Student
2006-2009: Team 313 - The Bionic Union
Reply With Quote
  #63   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 02:28
Doug G's Avatar
Doug G Doug G is offline
Coach / Teacher
FRC #0701 (Robovikes)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Fairfield, CA
Posts: 880
Doug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond reputeDoug G has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man View Post
I'm gunna go the opposite route and say NO alliance ever scores 100 high goal balls in auto during an official FIRST event.
I think this is the grand poobaa auto with this game... like the 2 ball auto last year or the 2/3 ball auto in '14. If a robot or alliance can get 40 balls in the top boiler in Auto... you can spend the rest of the game cycling the gears. As mentioned previously... it is definitely feasible and we will see the top teams inch closer and closer to achieving it at each regional they attend. By champs, there will be teams that can pull this off.
__________________
Work Hard, Have Fun, Make a Difference!

Reply With Quote
  #64   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 02:34
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,817
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zebra_Fact_Man View Post
I'm gunna go the opposite route and say NO alliance ever scores 100 high goal balls in auto during an official FIRST event.

100 balls would require 2 robots to each shoot with a minimum 83.3% shot accuracy (more if you don't get all the balls from the hopper), and only gives you 4 seconds to travel to the hopper, collect the balls, and aim. I just don't see 2 robot of this caliber/skillset. ending up on the same alliance.
I think it's far more likely that a single robot comes close to scoring 100 balls in auto than I do that no alliance will score 100 balls in auto.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
Reply With Quote
  #65   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 02:40
Joe G.'s Avatar
Joe G. Joe G. is offline
Taking a few years (mostly) off
AKA: Josepher
no team (Formerly 1687, 5400)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Rookie Year: 2007
Location: Worcester, MA
Posts: 1,453
Joe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond reputeJoe G. has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Joe G.
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I think it's far more likely that a single robot comes close to scoring 100 balls in auto than I do that no alliance will score 100 balls in auto.
Agreed. Collection is pretty easy -- trip the dump so that you collect them in the air from the far bin, then turn your intake on on the way to the boiler to scoop many of the remaining balls off the floor as possible. Should be able to get 70+ in the robot that way. Additionally, I think many people are seriously underestimating the potential fire rate of elite shooters in this game. Comparing to past games with heavy and large game pieces that largely did not incentivize fire rate optimization is not a good way to gauge how fast teams that really try to pump balls through their robots as fast as possible are going to be. Pure throughput is going to be more like lunacy dumpers than any recent more conventional "shooting" game, and also like Lunacy, absolute accuracy isn't as important due to the huge number of balls on the field. Like Lunacy, I do not think a single ball wide, turreted, angle adjustable shooter with heavy camera control is optimal for this game because it forces your game pieces to come out single file.

Additionally, I think people may be making too much of the distinction between the act of cycling gears, and the act of cycling fuel. With so many game pieces and no possession limit, you don't really need to target specific ones. I'm guessing that a robot that just puts its intake on the ground while making a beeline to/from the feeder station to deliver a gear is going to pick up an appreciable percentage of their storage capacity without making any special effort. Doubly so if the human players just dump fuel on the ground instead of waiting for the robot. Even if your primary match strategy revolves around gear cycles, why not take some shots at the boiler while you're down at that end of the field anyways, and you have the fuel? Not a lot of added time, for potentially significant added benefit.
__________________
FIRST is not about doing what you can with what you know. It is about doing what you thought impossible, with what you were inspired to become.

2007-2010: Student, FRC 1687, Highlander Robotics
2012-2014: Technical Mentor, FRC 1687, Highlander Robotics
2015-2016: Lead Mentor, FRC 5400, Team WARP
2016-???: Volunteer and freelance mentor-for-hire

Last edited by Joe G. : 09-01-2017 at 02:54.
Reply With Quote
  #66   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 03:04
indubitably's Avatar
indubitably indubitably is offline
Registered User
AKA: Ryan Guinn
FRC #2338 (Gear It Forward), FRC #1732 (Hilltoppers)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Rookie Year: 2008
Location: Oswego, IL
Posts: 172
indubitably has a reputation beyond reputeindubitably has a reputation beyond reputeindubitably has a reputation beyond reputeindubitably has a reputation beyond reputeindubitably has a reputation beyond reputeindubitably has a reputation beyond reputeindubitably has a reputation beyond reputeindubitably has a reputation beyond reputeindubitably has a reputation beyond reputeindubitably has a reputation beyond reputeindubitably has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I think it's far more likely that a single robot comes close to scoring 100 balls in auto than I do that no alliance will score 100 balls in auto.
Do you expect the official high goal to process fuel at a rate faster than 5 per second? Because if not, this feat isn't even possible (100 balls / 5 balls per second) = 20 seconds. It would need to be AT LEAST 25% faster to be possible and likely 50% faster when factoring in scoring latency, hang time of the first shot, and robot travel time to the hopper.
__________________
FRC 1732 (Hilltoppers): Mentor
FRC 2338 (Gear It Forward): Mentor/Alumnus
FRC 4096 (CTRL-Z): Mentor

Reply With Quote
  #67   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 03:24
Cory's Avatar
Cory Cory is offline
Registered User
AKA: Cory McBride
FRC #0254 (The Cheesy Poofs)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2002
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Redwood City, CA
Posts: 6,817
Cory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond reputeCory has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Cory
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by indubitably View Post
Do you expect the official high goal to process fuel at a rate faster than 5 per second? Because if not, this feat isn't even possible (100 balls / 5 balls per second) = 20 seconds. It would need to be AT LEAST 25% faster to be possible and likely 50% faster when factoring in scoring latency, hang time of the first shot, and robot travel time to the hopper.
My personal opinion is that the scoring feeder is going to be a disaster, because automated scoring has never worked properly in a FRC game before and now they're also introducing moving parts.

That being said, 5 balls per second is the average and it counts faster with more balls in. So if it's functioning correctly it needs to count 100 balls in say 8-10s which seems more reasonable.

In reality an alliance may score 100 balls in auto but not have 20+ counted until teleop. That would suck, but they still put 100 balls in the goal in auto, which is impressive.
__________________
2001-2004: Team 100
2006-Present: Team 254
Reply With Quote
  #68   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 03:27
ollien ollien is offline
Registered User
FRC #5202
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: United States
Posts: 335
ollien is just really niceollien is just really niceollien is just really niceollien is just really nice
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
My personal opinion is that the scoring feeder is going to be a disaster, because automated scoring has never worked properly in a FRC game before and now they're also introducing moving parts.
Did they fail in Stronghold? I personally don't recall any time that they did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
In reality an alliance may score 100 balls in auto but not have 20+ counted until teleop. That would suck, but they still put 100 balls in the goal in auto, which is impressive.
I am of the opinion that, at least for teleop, the match should not be considered ended until the boilers are fully processed. That being said, I'm conflicted as to whether robots should sit idly on the field while we wait for auto points to be processed in the same way.

Last edited by ollien : 09-01-2017 at 03:30.
Reply With Quote
  #69   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 08:55
natejo99's Avatar
natejo99 natejo99 is offline
Captain/Human Player
AKA: Nate Johansen
FRC #0074 (Team C.H.A.O.S.)
Team Role: Leadership
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Rookie Year: 2014
Location: Holland, MI
Posts: 83
natejo99 is on a distinguished road
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

At the moment, Team 74 is focusing on a fuel mechanism. We are unsure of what we will be focusing on with strategy, but we figured a shooter that does what we want is going to be harder to accomplish than a mechanism that is able to manipulate gears.
I fully expect good teams to be able to score fuel and gears, probably at the same time. With the turret designs we have seen in the past years(2012 and 2016 immediately come to mind) I don't think that's an improbability. Collection of balls will happen on the way to get the gear from the retrieval zone, and while the robots are scoring the gear, they will be able to shoot into the high goal. This was our teams largest point of discussion after kickoff, and I would be surprised if it didn't happen.
__________________
2013-Present - Student, FRC 74
2014 FRC Champions - 254, 469, 2848, 74
2014 FRC MSC Finalists - 1718, 67, 74
2016 Traverse City District Winners - 3688, 74, 6128
2016 Tesla Quarterfinalists - 74, 2054, 4468, 3238



Reply With Quote
  #70   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 09:14
pfreivald's Avatar
pfreivald pfreivald is offline
Registered User
AKA: Patrick Freivald
FRC #1551 (The Grapes of Wrath)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, NY
Posts: 2,303
pfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

In making this determination, I feel like I'm missing something that should be in the rules but isn't, and I want to make sure I have it right (or be corrected if I'm wrong):

Opponents can only be in your key for up to five seconds at a time, but they can contact whatever they want to (e.g. ram the heck out of you while you're trying to shoot) and only need to back out for a split second before doing so again.

Yes?
__________________
Patrick Freivald -- Mentor
Team 1551
"The Grapes of Wrath"
Bausch & Lomb, PTC Corporation, and Naples High School

I write books, too!
Reply With Quote
  #71   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 09:24
engunneer's Avatar
engunneer engunneer is online now
Alumni turned Mentor
AKA: Branden Gunn
FRC #4761
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Reading, MA
Posts: 869
engunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond reputeengunneer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald View Post
In making this determination, I feel like I'm missing something that should be in the rules but isn't, and I want to make sure I have it right (or be corrected if I'm wrong):

Opponents can only be in your key for up to five seconds at a time, but they can contact whatever they want to (e.g. ram the heck out of you while you're trying to shoot) and only need to back out for a split second before doing so again.

Yes?
that is my understanding. I think the intent is not to prevent defensive contact. The intent appears to be blocking the parking space.
__________________
Student FRC23 (1996-1999), Mentor FRC246 (2000), Mentor FRC1318 (2007-2009), Mentor FRC93 (2011), Mentor FRC2151 (2012), Mentor FRC23 (2013), Mentor FRC4761 (2014-2017)
1998 - National Chairman's Award and Woodie Flowers Award (FRC23, Mike Bastoni ) | 2007 - PNW SF (488, 1595) | 2008 - Oregon RCA - Seattle #2 Seed, SF (488, 1696) | 2009 - Oregon #1 Seed, Winners (1983, 2635) - Seattle SF (945, 2865) - Galileo #2 Seed, SF (973, 25) | 2012 Midwest F (111, 71) | 2014 RIDE Winners (78, 125), Inspector - NEU #24, QF (3479, 3958) - NECMP #35 | 2015 Reading #11, SF (1058, 190), Inspector - RIDE #17, QF(4055, 5494), Inspector - NECMP #57 | 2016 Reading #4, SF (133, 4474), DCA, Inspector - Ride #22, SF (1735, 2067), Creativity, Inspector - NECMP #48, RCA - Archimedes
Reply With Quote
  #72   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 09:33
Donut Donut is offline
The Arizona Mentor
AKA: Andrew
FRC #2662 (RoboKrew)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Rookie Year: 2004
Location: Goodyear, AZ
Posts: 1,308
Donut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond reputeDonut has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by engunneer View Post
that is my understanding. I think the intent is not to prevent defensive contact. The intent appears to be blocking the parking space.
I have the same take on this. This isn't your Rebound Rumble key.
__________________
FRC Team 498 (Peoria, AZ), Student: 2004 - 2007
FRC Team 498 (Peoria, AZ), Mentor: 2008 - 2011
FRC Team 167 (Iowa City, IA), Mentor: 2012 - 2014
FRC Team 2662 (Tolleson, AZ), Mentor: 2014 - Present
Reply With Quote
  #73   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 10:32
pfreivald's Avatar
pfreivald pfreivald is offline
Registered User
AKA: Patrick Freivald
FRC #1551 (The Grapes of Wrath)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: Naples, NY
Posts: 2,303
pfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond reputepfreivald has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Thanks.

It seems to me that shooting is going to be a lot harder when any mobile BLT will be able to hammer on you while you're doing it.
__________________
Patrick Freivald -- Mentor
Team 1551
"The Grapes of Wrath"
Bausch & Lomb, PTC Corporation, and Naples High School

I write books, too!
Reply With Quote
  #74   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 10:47
JesseK's Avatar
JesseK JesseK is offline
Expert Flybot Crasher
FRC #1885 (ILITE)
Team Role: Mentor
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Rookie Year: 2005
Location: Reston, VA
Posts: 3,710
JesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond reputeJesseK has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cory View Post
I think it's far more likely that a single robot comes close to scoring 100 balls in auto than I do that no alliance will score 100 balls in auto.
Even if it's 75% accuracy, and then it's 50 points in auto and the rest in teleop - 75 balls in the boiler in auto forces the other alliance to SPRINT to clear balls at the start of teleop. Else they face a large quantity of overflow in the early seconds of teleop. Then, with another 100 balls or so (20 seconds in, you think?) they better have a bot ready to receive balls, else one of their 3 bins will get dumped on the floor in front of all of your drivers. Wicked, vicious ball cycles...

Just be sure to drop your auton gear for your partner to use in teleop .
__________________

Drive Coach, 1885 (2007-present)
CAD Library Updated 5/1/16 - 2016 Curie/Carver Industrial Design Winner
GitHub
Reply With Quote
  #75   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 09-01-2017, 10:49
Daniel_LaFleur's Avatar
Daniel_LaFleur Daniel_LaFleur is offline
Mad Scientist
AKA: Me
FRC #2040 (DERT)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Peoria, IL
Posts: 1,972
Daniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond reputeDaniel_LaFleur has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via MSN to Daniel_LaFleur
Re: Fuel Vs. Gears

Quote:
Originally Posted by pfreivald View Post
Thanks.

It seems to me that shooting is going to be a lot harder when any mobile BLT will be able to hammer on you while you're doing it.
Yup.

The box on wheels will be useful this game
__________________
___________________
"We are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts, Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield. "
- Tennyson, Ulysses
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:56.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi