Team Update 6

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Yes. It would be nice if people remembered to quote the rules when they make definitive statements about those rules.

It would also be nice if people read the rules thoroughly. Its not up to me to hand feed them. I gave them a reason to go look at the rules again, so they could learn.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

Yes. It would be nice if people remembered to quote the rules when they make definitive statements about those rules.

Sure. It was correct in this case so we could have just left it at that. If it was incorrect, plenty of people would have corrected it. Such is CD.

[Jon Stratis]

I'm so glad to know that I can just come on here and trust anything I read about the game so long as no one has come along to correct it yet.

[Taylor]

I'll admit: in my numerous re-readings of the 2017 manual, I missed the caption below a figure that explicitly states the rotors must be engaged in order, as did a few others in this thread.
And we're the 'good ones'.

Aside from the occasional "do we have a weight requirement this year??" silliness, I'll refrain from ordering people to .

[EricLeifermann]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

I'm so glad to know that I can just come on here and trust anything I read about the game so long as no one has come along to correct it yet.

Originally Posted by Taylor

I'll admit: in my numerous re-readings of the 2017 manual, I missed the caption below a figure that explicitly states the rotors must be engaged in order, as did a few others in this thread.
And we're the 'good ones'.

Aside from the occasional "do we have a weight requirement this year??" silliness, I'll refrain from ordering people to .

By not citing the actual rule, or in this case a caption in the rule book, it forces someone to do research into it. I don't need to tell someone to read the manual, I can give them a reason to by giving them information that they need to verify. Don't just hand your students the answer make them work for it and they'll remember it more. At least that's what all my teachers, that I would consider good, did for me.

[Jon Stratis]

So basically, you're saying that instead of just telling people where to find the relevant piece of information when you post it, you'd rather make them go back and read through a 130 page manual in the hopes that they'll spot that one line of text underneath a picture this time?

I make my students read the rule book. When they ask me questions I don't just give them the answer... but I do tell them roughly where to find the answer and help them interpret it. I don't just leave them to struggle through 130 pages without knowing if what they're looking for is even mentioned in there or a figment of someone's imagination.

[Hallry]

Originally Posted by Jon Stratis

So basically, you're saying that instead of just telling people where to find the relevant piece of information when you post it, you'd rather make them go back and read through a 130 page manual in the hopes that they'll spot that one line of text underneath a picture this time?

Couldn't you have just CTRL-F the word "Rotor"...? Or, to be even more precise, "order"?

Also, FIRST conveniently splits the 2017 Game and Season Manual into sections, as advertised on their website. You could safely bet that this rule in question would be in either Section 3: Arena, Section 4: Match Play, or Section 7: Game Rules.

[Andrew Schreiber]

Originally Posted by Hallry

Couldn't you have just CTRL-F the word "Rotor"...? Or, to be even more precise, "order"?

And it's probably not in Sections 1,2,3,5,8,9, or 10. So, I mean, that rules out a lot of the manual to start with.

[MasterMentor]

Originally Posted by Bkeeneykid

• Shenzen and Champ practice fields will not be official FIRST fields (presumably AM fields)
• Despite being in the rules already, there's now another place that says there can be only two people in the airship.
• Touchpads are likely to break at 75 lbs of force.
• Apparently the touchpad dome likes to come unseated, and is no longer a foul if you do so.

I appreciate the summary, but it would be more appreciated if you'd not incorrectly summarize the Team Update.

• Both the FIRST and the AndyMark fields are both "official fields" used at Official FIRST Robotics Competition events. Otherwise, are district events "official"?
• It seems I am unable to find a maximum capacity on the airship prior to Team Update 06, except G03 says how many people must be in the airship during a match. I assume FIRST added a maximum capacity for safety reasons for people wanting to go into the airship before and after the tournament.
• The Team Update says that 75lbs of force is UNLIKELY to damage the touchpad. That seems like a roundabout way of recommending "don't use more than 75lbs of pressure", but it in now way definitively states that 76lbs will cause damage. My guess is FIRST factored in a safety factor and is hiding the true damage amount, if they even know themselves, but they're confident in how much force won't damage it.
• Wow, that's quite a stretch to get "the touchpad dome likes to come unseated" from the Team Update. They just said it's not field damage, probably in the same way popping a zip tie or knocking off a piece of plastic isn't necessarily field damage. I'll reserve my assumptions for when I finally see one of these in a competition setting.

-George

[Jon Stratis]

Rotor = 57 mentions
Order = 34 mentions

That's if you search the entire manual. Of course, something like this you'd think would be mentioned in the game rules, or maybe in match play, so you just open those one's up and search, don't find anything (Since it's talked about in the Arena), and assume what? That Eric is wrong?

The point is, simply making a statement on here and forcing everyone else to go verify its reliability is making everyone look for a needle in a haystack, and it could be very easy for people to arrive at different conclusions based on the assumptions they make. If we really want to ensure reliable, easily verifiable discussion about the rules, references should actually be made to where we get our information.

Trust me, in industry you don't just make statements about what's required for a product. You actually reference the requirement you're discussing, and when applicable even quote parts of it to ensure everyone is on the same page and agrees with whats been said. To do otherwise invites product errors.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by JesseK

Just below Figure 3-12.

Has anyone Q&A'd to see if you can place gears out of order? Put 2 gears in set 2, then insert gear in 1, then rotate 2? Cause I read that to mean Rotor 2 won't start until Rotor 1 is turning. I don't think there's any way to enforce not placing gears out of order.

[dodar]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Has anyone Q&A'd to see if you can place gears out of order? Put 2 gears in set 2, then insert gear in 1, then rotate 2? Cause I read that to mean Rotor 2 won't start until Rotor 1 is turning. I don't think there's any way to enforce not placing gears out of order.

No thats what the update made clear. If you get rotor 2 turning 10 seconds before 1 starts turning, 2 will stop turning.

[JesseK]

Originally Posted by Kevin Sevcik

Has anyone Q&A'd to see if you can place gears out of order? Put 2 gears in set 2, then insert gear in 1, then rotate 2? Cause I read that to mean Rotor 2 won't start until Rotor 1 is turning. I don't think there's any way to enforce not placing gears out of order.

This is a good question, and I don't think there's verbiage against putting gears on (e.g.) rotor 3 before rotor 2 has started turning. In the manual, the sentence after my quote says that order within a single gear set doesn't matter. Yet it also doesn't specify that order of filling the gear sets matters. Therefore, the only thing that matters is activation order. I searched 'gear set'.

[RoboChair]

Originally Posted by dodar

No thats what the update made clear. If you get rotor 2 turning 10 seconds before 1 starts turning, 2 will stop turning.

That's not what the update is talking about.

Spin gear 2.75 turns, then wait 9 seconds, then turn 0.25 turns and the rotor will start.
Spin gear 2.75 turns, then wait 10 seconds, then turn 0.25 turns and the rotor will not start. The rotor still needs an additional 2.75 turns now.

You must get all 3 gear turns within about 10 seconds.

[Kevin Sevcik]

Originally Posted by dodar

No thats what the update made clear. If you get rotor 2 turning 10 seconds before 1 starts turning, 2 will stop turning.

Not what I'm suggesting. I know Rotor 2 won't turn until Rotor 1 is turning. That's made clear by "ROTORS only start if GEARS are installed in ROTOR order: 1, 2, 3, and then 4".

The question is if I can place the gears for Rotor 2, THEN place the gear for Rotor 1, then start turning Rotor 2. Or better, crank on Rotor 2 while Rotor 1 gear is being placed. The only time I see this mattering is in a 3 gear auton attempt, but it could matter a lot for making that happen. I'm assuming slamming a gear in a slot is faster than placing it on a peg, so you ideally want to overlap building Rotor 2 gear set and placing gear in Rotor 1.