King of Mountain Robots

[Solace]

Originally posted by Jason Haaga
My thoughts exactly, a stacker that can muscle up on the ramp when it wants...

hmmmmmmmmmm............. Might this be indicative of what rage is cooking up this year?

b]If you really go back and look at the number of playoff rounds that wet 3 matches, I would say it's about 10%. [/b]

I would like to say that every single one of our finals matches last year, in all the competitions we attended, went for three rounds.

Not that we actually won any of those matches......(grrrrrrr!!!!!)

[Joel J]

Originally posted by Solace
hmmmmmmmmmm............. Might this be indicative of what rage is cooking up this year?

One would be inclined to think so, huh? You'll know by Saturday..

[Ben Mitchell]

If you think about it: as long as you expand to about 8 feet, you don't leave enough room on either side for a robot to fit through.

Why 11.5 feet? The extra few feet seem unnessasary to me.

[andy]

All i gotta say is you better watch out for us...
our arms are 10 feet wide AND we can stack...
We just have to build it first...
-Andy

[Gobiner]

Ok, team #753's fearless leader is a physics teacher, which has led to far more calculation and scrutiny towards everything than I think is ever due. But even though it's 4:12AM, I decided to figure out exactly what force is required for these winged king o' the hill robots. Assume 9 foot wings extending from center of gravity. Assume a high-traction track design with tracks at far corners of robot. Assume a robot can push with 100 lb of force. Said robot creates 10800 in-lb of torque on king robot (assuming center of gravity is pivot point). Corners of the track are 23.43 inches from center of gravity. To prevent the passage of attacking robot, they must have a force of friction of 461 lb exerted at the far corners of the robot. Now, to get that level of friction you'd need two suction cups that can exert 150 lb two (probably opposite) corners and have a 130 lb robot and have a coefficient of friction for both the suction cups and tracks of about 1.07. I don't think I did my math right, so am I missing something? King of the hill robots just seem silly to me if they have huge wings to prevent passage. Add to that the fact that your wings and mounts have to be able to withstand such a huge level of punishment.
Please, someone tell me I'm wrong.

[sevisehda]

I applaud the use of actual physics but there are some things you're leaving out. The robots don't pivit around the center of gravity because of the wheels, also because the wheels are not in the same plane as the wing it changing the calculations further. Also any breaking device at the tips would have more "leverage." Now suction cups are designed to exert a holding force not necessarly a side load. Alot of suction cups slide easily. So in order to stay on the ramp its best to put the weight of the bot at the tips rather than the center. That way they would acheive the most leverage." So if you could put 130 of bot at the tips of a 9 foot long winged bot, it would be hard to push.

There are other things involved too, team 179bots swamp thing has a ramp to block the ramp, robots will hit the ramp and drive up it, they will increase the traction swamp thing has as they try to push him off.

[EvilInside]

Okay, I see there are several key disadvantages to ramp control robots. Now, considering no-one, as of RIGHT NOW, knows who their alliance partner is, they can only set up effective one-on-one scenarios. Now, to pair up the two types being discussed here. Robot A is your ramp dominator. Robot B is your stacker that can fit under the bar. Robot A goes and perches atop the ramp. 25 points, preventing 25 points. Provided two bins are either transported from the opposing side to Robot B's side or fall fromt he center stack, Robot B now has 25 points and probably a lot of time to move all the bins from Robot A's side. This is disadvantage #1. Disadvantage #2 is the case that a robot can get on a small space on the ramp, getting the 25 points anyways. Disadvantage #3 is that robot is relying on being the best KOTH robot out there. If there is a better one, that team loses. End of story. It is not a dynamic enough system to avoid fate. Either it will win or it will lose in a one-on-one matchup. That is relying too much on the robot and not enough on strategy. I don't remember who said it, but good strategy will always beat a good robot, and there is no dynamic strategy to a KOTH robot. Sure, controlling the ramp is nice, but you cannot bank on being better than the competition, because everyone in FIRST has the possibility of creating something incredible. Oh yeah, and on that Mountain Dew bet, I'm changing. I think SPEED is going to win matches!

[Matthew936]

to late to do now but the idea of using a ramp to block could be cool, imagine a ramp bot with ball bearings on the top, let the opponent roll up you, then watch them roll back down, now that would be evil

[Madison]

Originally posted by Matthew936
to late to do now but the idea of using a ramp to block could be cool, imagine a ramp bot with ball bearings on the top, let the opponent roll up you, then watch them roll back down, now that would be evil

Or, watch them stop on top of you as your strategy becomes pointless and they get 25 points anyway

[Matthew936]

Originally posted by M. Krass
Or, watch them stop on top of you as your strategy becomes pointless and they get 25 points anyway

stop on a fairly steep ramp with ball bearings on it, that would be an interesting trick

[Cory]

Originally posted by EvilInside
Provided two bins are either transported from the opposing side to Robot B's side or fall fromt he center stack, Robot B now has 25 points and probably a lot of time to move all the bins from Robot A's side.

How did you come up with 25 points? two bins can be either zero, or one point. One stack of two=0 two bins on floor =2-1=1

you would need a stack of 6 and 6 bins to have a small lead against the other team. Mean while, the other alliances 2nd bot is running around getting points too.

I don't think very many teams will be able to effectively block the ramp at all.

Cory

[Madison]

Originally posted by Matthew936
stop on a fairly steep ramp with ball bearings on it, that would be an interesting trick

Well, how do you want to do this?

A single steep ramp? Then, I hook my wheels over the top edge and get stuck in place.

If it's two ramps, like a roof, I balance myself on top.

[sevisehda]

My idea of a ramp-dom would have to prevent passgae from one side to another, a wall in other words, a wedge may help them stay on, it would be pointless to do a one sided wedge because then a bot could come up from behind, on the flat side, and push you off. It may be hard to balance on a 2 sided because your back wheel may still be on the mesh. I'm sure people will some up with interesting tricks. Or build a wall and rely on a huge COF to keep them on the ramp.

The 2 points come from adding the 2 bins to the 8 that are there and having a 5 stack with 5 on the floor. However you have to transport them over bar and stack them. While the ramp-doms ally plays a defensive game. It could be a 2 on 1 but if an opposing bot can't lowride or trys to dislodge the ramp-dom then its a 1on1. A bot may be able to protect a stack but it would be hard to defend a stack and 5 boxes on the ground.

The boxes from the ramp-dom's side also have to be cleared to drop there score to just 25, this consumes time.

A fast-to-the-wall ramp-dom will be hard to beat plane and simple.

[johnscans]

if 2 king of the hills get allienced together then what r they gonna do. sit up there and do the hokey-pokey at their station. theykey to this years comp will be having a fast relativly powerful robot that can stack, mayb only 2 or 3 high, but can still stack. its gonna be an interesting year.

john scans

[Madison]

Originally posted by Shawn60
Assuming you have anything to stack and your robot is not invisible.

Y'know, if you keep saying that, we're all going to have flags on our robots so that we can see it above whatever wall you plan on deploying.

Besides, most of our robot's functions can entirely automated. It's like point and click