Disney Extortion!

[Nate Smith]

Originally posted by Michael Krass

Your $4000 entry fee is assessed irrespective of the size of your team. Just as your initial $5000 does nothing to cover any travel costs that may be associated with attending a regional, the same is true of Nationals, of course. This, I believe, is the most fair way of handling this. I'd much prefer it over being charged an entry fee based on your team size. . . that would, after all, very effectively limit how many students this program involves.

I don't know FIRST's budget offhand, but I feel that I can pretty safely say that very, very little of the entry fees are passed on the regional developers. There are folks around here that know more about that than I, though. So, it's really up to those charged with planning the events that need to somehow gather enough funds to do it. If Disney chooses to cover those costs by assessing a small fee, that's fine with me.

A few VERY good points were made in this post, and based on the knowledge I have from working on both sides of the coin(team member & event staff) the past few years, I would like to add a few things. As was mentioned above, there are two distinct types of funding needed to attend any FIRST event. First is the registration fee, which is charged the same amount regardless of team size or any other aspect. The money generated through these registration fees gets pooled to cover FIRST's expenses for the entire year, not just during the event season. After all, with the promary source of income for FIRST being these registration fees(I know they have grants and other funding coming in, but I have a feeling 4000 per team per event makes up a substantial part of their yearly budget,) part of it has to go to FIRST as a organization for purposes such as payroll, travel expenses, insurance, and recurring charges(electric bill, etc). When all is said and done, I would be surprised if even half of the amount gathered through entry fees is even available went toward actual event expenses. So, as you can see, it is not realistic to ask FIRST to spread that money out even further, without raising the registration fee.

Also, Michael mentioned the amount of money that actually goes toward the events themselves. While I don't know the numbers exactly for Disney, I have a rough idea of the numbers for a regional event. Last year, one of the regionals had 42 teams competing. Assuming the unlikely event that 100% of the registration fees went to the costs of this event, that would be 42x4000=$168,000. However, if my memory serves me correctly, the total amount for the event needed was $250,000, and the local committee was instructed to raise half of that through local sponsorship. Meaning that only $125,000/42=$2976 of each team's event fee went directly to the costs of the event. Note that this does not include the extra costs for transportation for the FIRST staff to the event, as well as the shipping costs to get the field and other equipment to the site(as far as I know).

Now, one thing to remember about this is that these figures are for a regional event, where all of the infrastructure(building, etc.) is already in place. The fact that EVERYTHING, from the bathrooms, to the chairs, to the lighting, to the electricity, has to be brought to us at Disney must cause this costs to skyrocket. As some people have mentioned in this post, the costs of Nationals to FIRST and Disney have always been offset by an extra charge figured into the cost of the hotel/park package. However, many teams have found, in looking for the best deal, it was cheaper to book outside of the provided packages, as any other booking did not include the expenses of the event itself. So, many teams have booked with the better deal, perhaps not thinking about what that additional cost may have gone toward. Now, the uproar seems to be, IMHO, that these teams, who have enjoyed the luxury of having the better deal for seemingly the same package these past few years, are in essence being "caught," and being asked to pay their fair share again. With the economy in a downturn like it is now, was it the best time to start this policy? Perhaps not, but it also needs to be kept in mind that may have been the exact reason it was started.

Flame away if you must, but I personally feel that the event fee, as I have stated many times over on this board, is the most fair way to handle the rising costs of the National Competition. The notification of FIRST's intent with this fee was made very early in the season, so teams could plan accordingly. While I'm not claiming that makes the money any easier to come across, it seems you were given fair warning, and at this point, many of these posts are repeating what was said previously, and arguing over something that most likely will not be changed this year. Therefore, unless clarification is asked regarding something I have said in this post, this will be my last in this thread. I'm sure that in the time I have spent writing this, everything else has been marked as read, so it should be interesting getting to see what else is new on the board since I was here yesterday afternoon.

[Michael Murphy]

Disney is a multi-billion dollar business. It seems reasonable that they would be willing to sacrifice a million dollars in return for what they're getting. First, hosting a robotics event at their own expense is great P.R. for the company. Second, Disney has a huge market for engineers, which FIRST churns out in droves. How many engineers have been hired by Disney out of FIRST? FIRST is a non-profit organization. Disney should be able to write off almost half of what they're paying out. Please let me know if I'm wrong...

[Perseus]

[quote]If a team is not staying at the Disney hotels and not buying park passes, the $75 per person is a bargain. How much does it cost to build the stadiums, pit tents, etc? How much does it cost to run the busses that all teams use? How much does it cost to put on the show at the closing ceremony and do the 'wrap party'? I don't know the answer, but it is plenty. This cost of the competition site is subsidized by the hotel/park pass/meal ticket packages, and it's only fair that teams who don't buy the packages should pay their share of the cost.[quote]


i know his is probably repeating someone else but this is in response to Kit. FIRST pays Disney to rent out EPCOT and also to pitch up the tents. Parking is also paid for, s Disney is competely compensated. do not think of them as some poor company that is just trying to make ends meet. They are a multi national, multi million dollar company that proabably makes a crap load without teh $75/person(or else they wouldnt let FIRST keep having the competition.). Disney is just trying to exploit more money out of FIRST and the teams because it knows the teams will pay.


Although my team is burdened by this, i am sure for some smaller, less sponsered teams, this 75 dollars a day is a killer. Trying to come up with the other fees must be near impossible and then to habe to pay 75 dollars a day or 400 a day to stay at a Disney hotel is outrageous

everyone has thier opinion about this.... but even if there isnt enough money for the competition (which disney undoubtedly has, its just up to them not to spend it)...... the $75 is most certainly not a bargain...... the reason the team isnt staying in the disney park in the first place is that they dont have the money to do so....... everyone should do thier part, this is true..... but if you expect an underfunded team from a place where members cant even pay for the trip out of thier pockets to pay the same amount as a team with a big sponsor behind it, then you are going to lose those underfunded teams, and make them feel bitter because they cant afford to have the same opportunities

its pretty obvious that the nationals have overgrown the capacity anyway....... hopefully first will think about splitting it into two seminationals........ this way disney wouldnt bear the full burden

scouting is getting impossible, and success is becoming more and more based on luck

[Madison]

[quote]Originally posted by Perseus

Although my team is burdened by this, i am sure for some smaller, less sponsered teams, this 75 dollars a day is a killer. Trying to come up with the other fees must be near impossible and then to habe to pay 75 dollars a day or 400 a day to stay at a Disney hotel is outrageous

Just to clarify this - the fee of $75 is assessed on a per student basis, rather than a per day basis. So, it's actually ~$16 day, assuming a four night stay.

Again, by choosing an option outside of the offered package, you are *NOT* being assessed any penalty as such! You are simply being asked to pay for your fair share of the costs of the event village.

If, for whatever reason, your team cannot afford to stay on Disney property, and cannot afford the additional $75 per person, you cannot afford to go to Nationals. It's that simple. You're not being cheated, or swindled, or otherwise treated unfairly.

We would've liked to attend one more regional, but we couldn't afford it. Are the hotels ripping us off because we don't have the money to pay them? Not really.

[Jeremy Davis]

OK, I no longer have the 2002 competition program book, but I do remember looking at the fiscal numbers published in it regarding FIRST Robotics. The numbers showed FIRST running about a $800,000 surplus this last fiscal year, quite a bit more than in previous years, and in fact they were in debt only a few years ago. So why this new $75 fee per person when FIRST is better off financially now than it ever has been before? Why are they putting this extra strain on a team's budget (not to mention personal budgets)?

[Nate Smith]

Originally posted by Jeremy Davis
OK, I no longer have the 2002 competition program book, but I do remember looking at the fiscal numbers published in it regarding FIRST Robotics. The numbers showed FIRST running about a $800,000 surplus this last fiscal year, quite a bit more than in previous years, and in fact they were in debt only a few years ago. So why this new $75 fee per person when FIRST is better off financially now than it ever has been before? Why are they putting this extra strain on a team's budget (not to mention personal budgets)?

While I don't have a program book in front of me to verify these numbers(I'll look over the one I have at home tonight), I have a feeling that any surplus may not be as easily usable as it may seem. In many cases, when an organization donates funds, they do it under the condition that those funds are earmarked for a specific purpose. So while looking at the raw numbers may indicate a surplus, the reality may be that those funds may be required to be used for other purposes than funding the Championship, such as advertising, travel(yes, a substantial amount of money goes toward transporting the FIRST staff to the various events), and new team recruiting. Also, while FIRST Robotics may have had a surplus, what about the other branches of FIRST? If one of those other branches was in debt, I'm sure that funds get redirected from one branch to another to help balance things out.

[Frank Toussaint]

Look, we don't know how much it costs to put on the championship event at EPCOT nor how much Disney makes or loses in the deal. I don't see any point in speculating about it.

Why don't we just trust Dean and FIRST to strike a reasonable deal with Disney.

I'm just glad that FIRST exists and I will continue to support FIRST on whatever terms FIRST feels are appropriate!

[HotWheels2002]

There is no way that FIRST would ever let Disney turn a profit. I'd bet that Disney wouldn't even allow themselves to try to make money on an event like this. I very much agree with the argument that the costs and fees associated with the National Competition are only as much as they must be. Disney knows that FIRST is a good thing for themselves and the rest of the planet, and surely they're only asking what they must in order to put on an event of this magnitude.

[Mike Norton]

There is no way that FIRST would ever let Disney turn a profit. I'd bet that Disney wouldn't even allow themselves to try to make money on an event like this. I very much agree with the argument that the costs and fees associated with the National Competition are only as much as they must be. Disney knows that FIRST is a good thing for themselves and the rest of the planet, and surely they're only asking what they must in order to put on an event of this magnitude.

Now what fairy wonderland are you living in.

Disney not turn a profit? I own Disney stocks and I know if disney started to do this they would lose all the trust in there Stock holders.

[Kit Gerhart]

Originally posted by Mike Norton



Now what fairy wonderland are you living in.

Disney not turn a profit? I own Disney stocks and I know if disney started to do this they would lose all the trust in there Stock holders.

I suspect that HotWheels2002 meant "Disney does not turn a profit on the FIRST National Event." I'm sure he/she is aware that Disney is a for-profit corporation.

As far as whether or not Disney makes money on FIRST, we don't know, and maybe Disney doesn't really know. I suspect their aim is to pretty much break even, and figure that they get some positive PR from it. When you get down to it, positive PR is the reason a lot of the corporate sponsors are involved. They are helping some kids, and assume they may, over time, get the services of some of these kids as employees, but PR is a big factor in corporate sponsorship of teams.

[Mike Norton]

If disney did this for all the good causes that the see every year they would go under.


Just look at all the different groups that go down to disney. FIRST is just one of many. They will make a dollar off of you just as they would anybody else that has a group that goes down.

They have other programs that look at getting good help at disney.


There are other places that would pay to have this group play in thier back yard.

[Bill Enslen]

Yesterday or today, FIRST came out with the following clarification on who has to pay the $75 fee if they are not staying on Disney property:

"Disney team member fee: We've received a number of questions from people about which "team members" need to pay the $75 fee for teams staying outside of the Disney package. Basically, a team member is a student or coach directly associated with the competition - i.e. helping in the pit on the robot, accepting awards as a team representative, or competing on the field. ponsors and parents/family as spectators are excluded from the
fee."

[HotWheels2002]

Originally posted by Mike Norton



Now what fairy wonderland are you living in.

Disney not turn a profit? I own Disney stocks and I know if disney started to do this they would lose all the trust in there Stock holders.

I thought that it was obvious that I was talking only about Disney's relation to the FIRST National Championship event, and not about how Disney makes it's billions during the rest of the year. Now I have not seen the numbers, but I am quite certain that Disney is taking an initial economic hit (which is then probably made up for by the publicity gained from the event). I am also not arguing that Disney is being purely philanthropic; Obviously they want the extra dollars gained from the FIRST publicity to outweigh their costs for putting in the event.

I guess the fairy wonderland that I'm living in is one where oligopolistic firms seek a long run supply/demand equilibrium point that at least breaks even.

[miketwalker]

Unfortuanately, nobody will do anything for free. Your payment might be (say for mentors) to see your kids doing so well. For engineers it could be to help them have more engineers in the future. For Dean Kamen it might be to help him promote segway (which he always seems to do). For Disney, it is to make some money. I am both sided on this debate. On one hand Disney might make profit but not as much as they could be, as said earlier in this discussion. On the other hand, rookie teams and large teams cant afford it. I am more onto the side of agreeing with it though. Is it fair for a team with 100 people to pay the same as a team that only has enough sponsors for 10? Yes $75 is alot if you put 100 people into that. I think it helps balance it out though. Maybe they should change the registration fee since you do pay at regionals already. The restrictions on going to Nationals are good and bad. Some teams should go but cant cause of restrictions. But restrictions keep it possible to even hold the regional. Another thing I would like to throw into this mix that I saw earlier was about FIRST becoming much larger and more publicized. The public is going the wrong way. They are going more towards battlebots and now they are making some high school battlebots show. Battlebots is educational in a minimal way. Only a few people build it, its serious competition, no second chances, and your not trying to perform advanced tasks, your just spinning a saw, wedging them, or using some pneumatics to flip them. I think CNN or some big network should hold a 30 minute segment, maybe once a week or two showing different competitions. This could bring the nation to notice FIRST more. Many dont know FIRST exists. I'm sure when you tell somebody who has never heard of FIRST, 90% of them say "what is it like battlebots?". This is a terrible vision. A network must try to help publicize us even if it's not that often. To show the better competition and get even more students into this. Which is what FIRST is all about, trying to change the youth from being more into sports but more into things they will actually use. Well that is my 2 cents.