The complaining and Philosophical Issue Bar

Sean, well said.

Police officers, firemen and other emergency medical people should be given the highest respect. Everyday they risk lives. I honor and support all of the people that do this. It wouldnt kill you to thank the firemen, police men and EMT's, who knows, maybe one day these "morons" might save your life too.

[PsiMatt]

Here are two poems that express the consequences of doing nothing, of simply valuing ourselves above others...

First they came for the Jews.

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out -
because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the communists
and I did not speak out -
because I was not a communist.

Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out -
because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

Apathy
So long ago the mists of time called out for one who cared,
who cared at all about eternity,
but in the silence there was none,
who would restore life's destiny.

And so the worlds of truth and light,
the Earth so full of youth,
succumbed to the ancient demon's might,
to vanish in time and truth.

Why would someone care, or even understand...
when plights not theirs do call out for a friend,
"It be not ours" they mock and say,
while praying for another day to come and pass eventlessly,
so that they may not troubled be.

But who would then saveth ye, when the keeper comes to toll for thee,
When death strikes at their heart of hearts,
with the poison'd tip of its thrice-feared dart.

And so no one ever tries...to save a life instead of cry,
and those who may have given thanks are turned into ancient tanks,
devoid of life yet full of pride,
empty of joy and rusting away...

Matthew David Lee

[John Bono]

Well, folks I'll address everything new in a minute, but I have to bring up a new topic.

JosephM 02-13-2003 06:20 AM
Everyone will overcome the loss. It's life. Just keep hope that there is a better place out there beyond the physical world.

Yes, I agree that people overcome loss as you said, but what the hell. Do we really need to perpetuate this archaic mythology that there's an afterlife? Isn't it enough to be a good person in this life and see that for its own rewards? I look forward to seeing your responses.

Now for old news:
A Snotdgrass:
How does trading one life for another make a difference? You're just substituting your known quantitative value for someone else's unknown quantitative value. Yes, I understand RISKING your life--that makes perfect sense, but I'm speaking specifically of all out sacrifice (or odds so close as to make it the same).
I understand courage and bravery, but there is definately a fine line between that and martyrdom, and that line is where there is no positive benefit from taking such a course of action. I don't see how -1+1 is any different than 1-1. There is still no net effect, and thus you are accomplishing nothing. Yes, our emergency services risk thier lives, but do they sacrifice them? I'd hope our best and brightest would think through a little more if they KNEW they were going to die.
Sean330: (Hey, I saw your team at regionals last year )
Anyway, again, you'r RISKING, not SACRIFICING your life. Yes, risking your life is heroic, but dying is no more heroic--in fact its exactly as heroic--you're just dead. I admire your bravery and courage to go out every day (or however many days you work--I know a lot of emegency service people work 3-16 hour shifts, 4-12 hour shifts, and crazy stuff like that a week), you're taking a calculated risk, but there's no guarantee that you'll die, and a very high chance that you'll save at least one life.
And please, NEVER lay your life down before mine--while I would be able to bear it on my conscience, I'd be forever harassed for not visiting your grave every year. If you lay down your life for me and another person, okay. I respect your analysis that no life is more valuable than another, so I can't see how an exchange is anything more than a kind gesture to a random stranger. Does it make you a good person? Yes. Does it make you a hero? I would say no, but many would. Again, the reason I say not is because your original set out goal had no net positive impact. True, it had a positive impact for saving a life, but it also has an equally negative effect of taking your life away. I refrain: 1-1=-1+1. Really well spoken post, by the way.
Doanie8: I believe that us all coming from different circumstances makes us able to come to better conclusions on our own. The more voices that speak, the more ironing out that can be done in thot processies, the more new ideas can be brought to light. As I observed at a diversity training course once: the problems submitted were only solvable by the fact that everyone there came from a different background. And although I try not to disrespect others' beliefs, I sometimes do by accident (my inner thoughts are quite a bit ruder--and less accurate or considerate than my outward ones), or say something that can be interpreted as such. I apologize for having done so in the past, and my inevitable repitition of the disrespect.
Again, in general, these people aren't morons if they're saving more lives than they're losing. I never even inferred that. I made perfect clarification that I meant in a one for one case. And for that matter, how come FAK never gets any flak? His wordage is by no means as clear.
PsiMatt: Your poems don't reall apply. I see no incredible risk to speaking out against the execution of others. In fact, I remember lots on the history channel about people who joined WWII to fight specifically to stop the haulocoust(sp?), and they weren't sacrificing thier lives--they were only risking them. Again, clear defined line. BIG difference between giving up and risking life. And it's not like I don't care--there's just nothing I can do about it. I'm not going to sit and sulk about every person who ever died every moment of my life--that's counter productive. Again: IF I CAN DO NOTHING, I WILL TRY NOT TO WORRY. Not giving up my one life for another person's one life doesn't make me uncompassionate--it makes me a person who has a mythodical and ordered sense of logic and reasoning. Again, setting out to accomplish nothing is niether noble nor courageous (although it might be brave).

As the flavor text on one of my favorite Magic cards reads: Urza convinced many Dominarians not only to set aside their differences, but embrace them. (Bonus points to anyone who can name that card.)

[A. Snodgrass]

Im sorry you feel that way. However it would have been a lot better if you had spelled my last name correctly and not basically made it into an insult with the spelling. And you know what? If you were in danger and it came between me giving up my life to save yours I would STILL do it. You have said nothing that convinces me otherwise. I believe in the value of all human life, and I know I have lead a fulfilled and happy life. If my life ended right now I could die happy knowing that fact.

and you know what? I do believe in an afterlife. I believe that there is something that happens after death. Because I do believe there is something about us that is separate yet somehow connected within ourselves.

[FAKrogoth]

About the afterlife thing, I personally believe that most of the support for this view comes from the fact that life isn't fair! A lot of people don't want to have to deal with it, so they like to believe that there is a great equalizer. Then, they can feel good about their suffering, because, by taking it in the $@#$@#$@#, they're getting karmic brownie points and condemning the other guy to Hell. Thus, they convince themselves that there is no reason to stick up for themselves. This is very dangerous attitude to promote, unless you're a slave driver or the Catholic Church.

Personally, I believe that there is no 'life after death,' because there is EXACTLY no evidence of any mechanism by which it would work. To convince me of something unprovable, one must show at least a way it MIGHT work. Is anyone up to the challenge?

[PsiMatt]

The aforementioned statement comes from the "Pledge of Loyalty" Magic Card...i will be responding to the other points when i have time

[BingoTheClowno]

FAKrogoth:
I have to agree with you about the afterlife. The idea of any deity or locations such as hell is inconcievable. if we are to believe the intangible is existent, it would negate the value of perceptions (meaning our world [as we and others see it] would be meaningless and inconsequential). If we can say that an angry, vengeful father figure in the sky is a reality, than what does that say of the reality I feel through my fingers on the keyboard?

[Mike Schroeder]

How could you say some one is moronic for risking lives or what ever, I believe, that the Police,Fire/rescue Squads and the armed forces are on of the few things this country is good for, I can honestly say for a fact, sleep better knowing that if something bad happens, there will be people there risking there lives to help, and let me tell you something about people risking lives for other people, My Father was a Fire Fighter, and when at a fire, he fell off a 18 ft ladder trying to save a person from a burning building, and my mother was one of the first Women fire fighters in NJ so she was there when it happened

SO before anything about "Moronic" comes out of your mouth, put yourself in the shoes, of a victim that was saved by a these said morons, and tell me that you wouldn't be happier if they didn't help you

[John Bono]

A. Snodgrass: Sorry--that was actually a typo. I didn't mean it. I can't recall the last time I resorted to name calling, as it doesn't actually accomplish anything unless the person you're talking to has the intelligence of a salt shaker.
PsiMatt: Good job.
Everyone:

Originally posted by "Big Mike"
How could you say some one is moronic for risking lives or what ever, I believe, that the Police,Fire/rescue Squads and the armed forces are on of the few things this country is good for, I can honestly say for a fact, sleep better knowing that if something bad happens, there will be people there risking there lives to help, and let me tell you something about people risking lives for other people, My Father was a Fire Fighter, and when at a fire, he fell off a 18 ft ladder trying to save a person from a burning building, and my mother was one of the first Women fire fighters in NJ so she was there when it happened

SO before anything about "Moronic" comes out of your mouth, put yourself in the shoes, of a victim that was saved by a these said morons, and tell me that you wouldn't be happier if they didn't help you

Please, read my ENTIRE post before you decide to reply to what I've said. I'm tired of repetedly clarifying the exact same words over and over again. I've responded to everything said in this post, completely explaining EXACTLY how I feel, and pointed out that I never said risking your life in attempt to save others is moronic. Sacrificing your life in attempt to save others is in may opinion moronic (especially when you don't know the person well enough to know that it's a worthy price).

[A. Snodgrass]

Just a general comment, I believe that mike did fully read through your post. However, your wording in that first post left something to be desired. Plus the way that you posted, it gave the feeling that you dont differentiate between risking and sacrificing of life. You have done nothing to dispell that to this point.
If it comes down to sacrifice there are two different things that could happen. Either way you die, but you know what? at least maybe you made an impact. I find it sad that you wouldnt sacrifice yourself so that others could be safe...but that is your choice. I respect that you respect your own life. I personally just cannot value my life over any other.

[Sean_330]

John, in reply to what you said previously, I indeed, did read your entire post and still find myself compelled to respectfully disagree with your assertions. The basis behind the term risking one's life is that the danger involved is a danger to the extent to which it may kill you. Every time someone risks their life, it is a gamble therefore. Therefore, the people who die and the ones who live risking their lives are absolutely no different in nature. One lost the "lottery" and one of them "won." Let me put forth a theoretical situation based on what has happened to emergency responders in the past.

There are 2 EMTs on an ambulance, and the rig arrives first on scene of a shooting with a victim down, but still alive. When life is at stake, risks must be taken to save it and intervention is started to save the victim without the protection of the police. Now, as is sometimes the case, the shooter returns to the scene to see how he did and lets assume in this case he does, and decides he wants to kill the people trying to initiate lifesaving treatment. He opens fire and, while treating EMT 1 is shot and killed by the gunman, but EMT 2 escapes injury because as fate would have it, the bullets all miss him, yet hit his partner. Maybe the victim survives. Even if the victim died, at least his family could rest assured that everything that could be done to save him was done. To the families of many victims, this is very important. Therefore based on your assertions is EMT 1 a "moron" and EMT 2 a "hero" by virtue that one was in the wrong place and one was not? EMT 1 died, while EMT 2 only risked his or her life So, in this case, which has happened in real life, does one's location in relationship to where the bullets went determine whether the person was a noble person, or whether they were a moron because one survived and one did not at the same call?

A second factor that bothered me was when you said "especially when you don't know the person well enough to know that it's a worthy price." I feel that we, as humans, have no right to judge one person above another. If you save someone, you gave them a second chance at life. With this chance they may become the next Ben Carson, Martin Luther King, or Albert Einstein. However, the effects of the rescue may not be fully realized for years to come or ever. While, it may seem that you based on your intellectual ability may be superior to someone of lesser intelligence, it is foolish, in my opinion, to value yourself as more than another.

In conclusion, John, I respect your opinion, but feel that the alternate opinion has the right to be voiced and should be voiced as well.

[Madison]

Originally posted by John Bono
I'm tired of repetedly clarifying the exact same words over and over again. I've responded to everything said in this post, completely explaining EXACTLY how I feel, and pointed out that I never said risking your life in attempt to save others is moronic. Sacrificing your life in attempt to save others is in may opinion moronic (especially when you don't know the person well enough to know that it's a worthy price).

If you have to continually explain and clarify your original words, you didn't do such a great job in the first place.

If you're going to argue, it's your responsibility to make sure that your words are chosen carefully, correctly, and with due regard for their connotations.

If, by reading your words, people are unclear as to your position, confused, or misinterpreting what you intended to say, it's your own fault. You probably ought not go around yelling at people because you did a poor job elucidating yourself.

[Onizuka]

your life is in your own hands...however if you have the choice between living or saving a few hundred or even three or four people it then becomes your battle within yourself to make that decision. people who have the courage to save others without regards to their own life are not moronic...they are pursuing what choice they have made for themselves...

[John Bono]

Too a few people:

myself
How does trading one life for another make a difference? You're just substituting your known quantitative value for someone else's unknown quantitative value. Yes, I understand RISKING your life--that makes perfect sense, but I'm speaking specifically of all out sacrifice (or odds so close as to make it the same).
I understand courage and bravery, but there is definately a fine line between that and martyrdom, and that line is where there is no positive benefit from taking such a course of action. I don't see how -1+1 is any different than 1-1. There is still no net effect, and thus you are accomplishing nothing. Yes, our emergency services risk thier lives, but do they sacrifice them? I'd hope our best and brightest would think through a little more if they KNEW they were going to die.

I believe that was clear enough. I think I split hairs enough in that definition.

Originally posted by Sean_330
John, in reply to what you said previously, I indeed, did read your entire post and still find myself compelled to respectfully disagree with your assertions. The basis behind the term risking one's life is that the danger involved is a danger to the extent to which it may kill you. Every time someone risks their life, it is a gamble therefore. Therefore, the people who die and the ones who live risking their lives are absolutely no different in nature. One lost the "lottery" and one of them "won." Let me put forth a theoretical situation based on what has happened to emergency responders in the past.

There are 2 EMTs on an ambulance, and the rig arrives first on scene of a shooting with a victim down, but still alive. When life is at stake, risks must be taken to save it and intervention is started to save the victim without the protection of the police. Now, as is sometimes the case, the shooter returns to the scene to see how he did and lets assume in this case he does, and decides he wants to kill the people trying to initiate lifesaving treatment. He opens fire and, while treating EMT 1 is shot and killed by the gunman, but EMT 2 escapes injury because as fate would have it, the bullets all miss him, yet hit his partner. Maybe the victim survives. Even if the victim died, at least his family could rest assured that everything that could be done to save him was done. To the families of many victims, this is very important. Therefore based on your assertions is EMT 1 a "moron" and EMT 2 a "hero" by virtue that one was in the wrong place and one was not? EMT 1 died, while EMT 2 only risked his or her life So, in this case, which has happened in real life, does one's location in relationship to where the bullets went determine whether the person was a noble person, or whether they were a moron because one survived and one did not at the same call?

A second factor that bothered me was when you said "especially when you don't know the person well enough to know that it's a worthy price." I feel that we, as humans, have no right to judge one person above another. If you save someone, you gave them a second chance at life. With this chance they may become the next Ben Carson, Martin Luther King, or Albert Einstein. However, the effects of the rescue may not be fully realized for years to come or ever. While, it may seem that you based on your intellectual ability may be superior to someone of lesser intelligence, it is foolish, in my opinion, to value yourself as more than another.

In conclusion, John, I respect your opinion, but feel that the alternate opinion has the right to be voiced and should be voiced as well.

1) I believed you to read my entire post. That wasn't directed towards you, it was directed towards that guy that re-stated the same argument that had been given for the third time.
2) I said, in no otherwise interpretable words (as well did FAK, who I agree on everythng except for certain particulars of religion), that it was equally heroic dying or not. Read the posts again--I'm too lazy. And no: EMT 1 did not sacrifice his life, he risked it, thus exempting him from the John Bono moronic clause (as that statement seems to haunt me no matter how much clearer I try to make it).
3) Who is to say that the person sacrificing thier life won't be the next Ben Carson, Martin Luther King, or Albert Einstein? Thus why I made the net effect statement.
4) Yes, I respect your opinion, too (although I'd like to hear it once instead of three times in different words because certain people want to reaffirm that they feel the same way as the other guy who just posted *cough* Big Mike *cough*). I look forward to arguing some more.

Onizuka: Yes, I think we've been over this.

[Ken Leung]

I think you guys just need to agree to disagree, and leave it at that. You pretty much know for certain you won't convince the other person to change their point of view. So what's the point of arguing more?

If anyone of you don't have anything other than arguing with each other to say to each other, just do it privately.