Go to Post I wouldn't mind dropping a banana peal or throwing a red turtle shell at other robots, but that's the rules! - SpaceOsc [more]
Home
Go Back   Chief Delphi > FIRST > Robot Showcase
CD-Media   CD-Spy  
portal register members calendar search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read FAQ rules

 
Closed Thread
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #31   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2003, 01:20
David.Cook's Avatar
David.Cook David.Cook is offline
Registered User
#0384 (Sparky)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tucker HS, Richmond, VA
Posts: 39
David.Cook is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via Yahoo to David.Cook
MOE, if you are doubtful about auton bots getting to the stack in 2-3 seconds, then you didn't watch the Fla Regional. I think it was team 312 that did it consistently. I was totally amazed, but they did it several times (at least - I didn't see everything)

Regarding the possibility of slipping on the carpet, we had that difficulty in our testing before we shipped, so we created what we called "MotorSave" code. This is a special algorithm that runs in all modes. The last thing you do before you actually output a new motor command, is compare it to the previous motor command. Obviously, you must do each motor independently. You limit the maximum change in motor command to some value 10, 20, 30, 40, whatever you think is best.

The first thing we noticed when we did that is we didn't hurt our clutches nearly as much, so they last longer. The second thing is you can find the value that keeps your wheels from slipping on the carpet when you jam the joystick to full. Best of all, our driver says he has the best control he has ever had. (At first he was worried that the response was slow)

This goes a long way towards making auton work better. The other thing we do is change the battery between every match. Even in Elimination rounds we have the guys running to the pit to keep them charged.

Sparky takes ~4 seconds to get to the top and knock bins. I believe we could get there in 3 seconds given time to test things, but we do a couple things that slow us down.
First, we don't go full speed until we finish our turn and are heading up the ramp. Second, we slow down (yeah, that's right) just before we contact the bins. It yields a better bin-fall when you go slow. Third, we make a pretty wide turn. It took a lot of tweaking to get the turn radius the same in left and right-hand modes, so we won't be mucking around with that.

Final comment: Getting to the top of the ramp first does not guarantee a win. We have not been first in many matches we won. It is the remaining 1:45 that really makes the difference.

Final Final Comment: <rant> Why doesn't anyone really try to maximize the score by balancing the bin count on both sides?????
I mean, even if both teams have only a two stack left, you still really want to win with 20 bins on one side and 21 on the other - YOU GET WAY MORE QP THAT WAY. But every match I see the same thing, the team gets 95% of the bins on their side, and then make the ultimately unintelligent move of proceeding to clear the rest of the bins off the opponents side. Geez, those are 2-for-1 points you are losing. If you take out the 4x multiplier, you have divided you QP adder by 8! I really thought teams would understand that you absolutely WANT a close match. I am not talking about fixing matches - BOO! I just think before the drivers get caught up in the Battlebot mentality they should consider whether they want enough points to be able to pick their alliance at the end of the day. </rant>
Sorry if I drifted off topic a little *cheesy grin*.

[Disclaimer: the rant which preceded is not necessarily the view of Tucker HS or the rest of team Sparky, just the ravings of one slightly frustrated mentor.]
__________________
Be unrestrained as the wind...
  #32   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 29-03-2003, 01:54
Stephen Kowski's Avatar
Stephen Kowski Stephen Kowski is offline
BSEE, MSEE, JD
AKA: employed
no team
Team Role: Alumni
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Saint Petersburg, FL
Posts: 1,144
Stephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond reputeStephen Kowski has a reputation beyond repute
Send a message via AIM to Stephen Kowski
hehe yeah we hit the entire wall in three seconds or less consistently, but it isn't dead reckoning (definitely not line tracking either).
  #33   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2003, 09:27
Paul Copioli's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero Woodie Flowers Award
Paul Copioli Paul Copioli is offline
President, VEX Robotics, Inc.
FRC #3310 (Black Hawk Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,382
Paul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond repute
Answer DR. Joe's Question

Joe,

To directly answer your question, the Thunderchickens give a preprogrammed steering angle (actually potentiometer value) based on where we want to hit the ramp (near, far, center) and full throttle until the gyro detects the ramp (threshold value). After detection, we can do various things based on what we select prior to the match. All the processing is done using a PIC and bit values are communicated to the RC and it uses a fairly simple case statement to determine what to do. After the ramp is detected we use a timer in the PIC to put wings down, up, change gears, and stop.

-Paul
  #34   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2003, 09:49
Gope Gope is offline
Registered User
#0016 (Bomb Squad)
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mountain Home, AR
Posts: 230
Gope is on a distinguished road
At Mid-West the fastest were

16 - 2.75 seconds (my team woot)
217 - 3.1 seconds
111 - 3.4 seconds

We repeatedly timed these teams and they consistantly had these times.
__________________
College and its wonders. First year and alot of other FIRSTs.
  #35   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2003, 09:50
Paul Copioli's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero Woodie Flowers Award
Paul Copioli Paul Copioli is offline
President, VEX Robotics, Inc.
FRC #3310 (Black Hawk Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,382
Paul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond repute
Our Timers Correlate

We also timed teams, and got very similar results. Although we timed 16 at 2.6 seconds on a couple of occasions.

-Paul
  #36   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 31-03-2003, 20:52
Joe Johnson's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero
Joe Johnson Joe Johnson is offline
Engineer at Medrobotics
AKA: Dr. Joe
FRC #0088 (TJ2)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: May 2001
Rookie Year: 1996
Location: Raynham, MA
Posts: 2,633
Joe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Johnson has a reputation beyond repute
2.5 Seconds = World Class Target...

So, with 4 of 5 Regional weekends behind us, it seems to me that 2.5 Seconds to the top of the ramp is the "World Class Target."

I know a lot of teams who have had less than stellar performances to date (Chief Delphi included) be aiming for better times in Texas. Time will tell if we've hit our marks.

From what I have seen on the web and with my own eyes, it will take a 2.5 second ramp run to win this thing (plus the ability to stay upright if an opponent meets you at the top plus the abiltiy to fight for the top at the end plus the ability to empty the opponent's carpet area plus the cool headedness to know what to do when plus, the most important ingredient, luck)

Luck and fast ramp runs to us all...


Joe J.

Last edited by Joe Johnson : 31-03-2003 at 21:31.
  #37   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-04-2003, 09:57
Paul Copioli's Avatar Unsung FIRST Hero Woodie Flowers Award
Paul Copioli Paul Copioli is offline
President, VEX Robotics, Inc.
FRC #3310 (Black Hawk Robotics)
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Rookie Year: 2000
Location: Rockwall, TX
Posts: 1,382
Paul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond reputePaul Copioli has a reputation beyond repute
Fast Ramp a must ...

Joe,

We were discussing this with our team during the MidWest Regional. We decided to slow the robot down slightly to get better repeatability. We were asking ourselves, "How fast is fast enough?"

We came close to getting the answer at MidWest. Semifinal 1, match 2 we decided to go head to head with 16 (normally we go to the center of the ramp and put our wings down). 16 consistently went tight around the ramp getting the three columns closest to them (3,4,5 bins each). We decided to go to the inside to see what kind of stalemate we could create (did not put wings down).

Even though they beat us to the top by about 0.4 seconds, we got there fast enough to create a stalemate (2 or 3 bins fell into 16's scoring zone and most just went straight up ... pretty spectacular). What mattered more is what the drivers did after the stalemate. Anyone who was watching knows we got smoked when the human control started.

So, to make a long story short, I think anyone around 3 seconds will be very competitive and will put their drivers in a good position to win the match.

-Paul
  #38   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-04-2003, 10:41
David.Cook's Avatar
David.Cook David.Cook is offline
Registered User
#0384 (Sparky)
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Tucker HS, Richmond, VA
Posts: 39
David.Cook is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via Yahoo to David.Cook
Paul - I like your last post. You aptly point out that the match was won/lost during driver control. At the risk of being a little judgemental, it really seems that teams are obsessing about speed to the top. IMHO, although it is a factor, it does not presuppose the outcome of the match.
See you at Houston - we finally got school board approval for the trip, even though they have cancelled many other field trips due to the war.
Go Sparky!
__________________
Be unrestrained as the wind...
  #39   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-04-2003, 10:45
Powers's Avatar
Powers Powers is offline
Registered User
#0710 (PAW)
Team Role: College Student
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Fort Lauderdale, FL
Posts: 229
Powers is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to Powers
we make it in and around 3.5 consistently, until we foolishly try to change our routine, in which case we dont make it, then lose..... o well.... we use dead reckoning, b/c w/ 2 wheel steering it is just easier than following a line, although it will look like we are following it.
__________________
Team 710 PAW Alum
The team that supports the use of the word "Blatantly"
TEXAS WON THE ROSE BOWL
  #40   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-04-2003, 12:48
Kojib Kojib is offline
Registered User
#0016 (Baxter Bomb Squad)
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Mountain Home, AR
Posts: 24
Kojib is an unknown quantity at this point
Send a message via ICQ to Kojib Send a message via AIM to Kojib Send a message via Yahoo to Kojib
Quote:
Originally posted by KenWittlief
from reviewing the tapes of the Buckeye regional, we hit the wall consistantly in about 4.5 seconds.

we were only beaten to the wall once, by a bot that made it in 3.

From the calculations we did on energy and HP - 3.0 seconds should be the fastest - if anyone does better than that, have their bot re-inspected - they are cheating! :c)
Not true. We timed 2 Minute Warning at 2.75 seconds and when we posted it, Thunderchickens said they clocked us at 2.6 seconds. The key is a strong drive-train and dead reckoning. Many of our team-members have worked on Lego League teams and in that time we discovered that sensors usually, if not always, slow you down. Another way to increase speed is put more than one motor on a wheel. Lastly, curving, not forward, turn, forward drastically increases speed.
  #41   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-04-2003, 17:08
Jack Jones Jack Jones is offline
Retired
no team
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Rookie Year: 2003
Location: Waterford, MI
Posts: 964
Jack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond reputeJack Jones has a reputation beyond repute
Re: 2.5 Seconds = World Class Target...

Check out:

http://www.soap108.com/2003/movies/il/
Q-matches 20, 33, 44, 56

Appears to me that 2.5+ will just earn a slap in the face; twice, in fact, when the second half of the "one-two" punch comes @ ~5 sec.

I like the idea of knowing what to do when => Go to plan "B" against #71

Jack J.
BTW - Joe, I put together a CD that includes the above - see M. Martus for your copy.
  #42   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 01-04-2003, 17:33
KenWittlief KenWittlief is offline
.
no team
Team Role: Engineer
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 4,213
KenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond reputeKenWittlief has a reputation beyond repute
If you make it to the wall in less than 3 seconds my hats off to you!

If you draw out the line your bot follows from starting position, to the boxes, and calculate the max possible acceleration, including the turn, then you are pushing the laws of physics to get there in less than 3 seconds.

Im not saying it cant be done ( didnt you see the :c) in my post?)

if you are getting there really fast you must have sacrificed something, accuracy, weight (how heavy is your bot?), number of boxes you can hit...

Getting to the wall first is not the whole story - you want to take out 3 or 4 columns, push ALL the boxes into your scoring zone, do it consistantly

and still have a bot that is able to push other bots around, hold its own on top of the ramp...

I wouldnt be too sure about a 180 turn being faster than a V turn. either way your bot starts out heading south, and it has to accelerate to head north - whether its by a sweeping 180 turn, or a back and forth V turn - you are still converting all the momentum of your bot from one direction to the opposite direction.

Gettting their first makes a big difference:

1. you hit the boxes first, you send them flying in the direction you choose - sometimes over the top of the slower robot coming up the other side

2. you have more momentum when you hit the slower bot

3. you are on your way DOWN when you hit the slower bot - gravity is on your side

4. your bot is more stable hitting another on the way down, then being hit on the way up - less likely to be tipped over backwards.

Our general strat at the Canadian regional was to let our auton mode hit the wall fast (we got it down to about 4 seconds) - our flying squirrel spanned 5.5 feet and always took out at least 3 columns - the bot stopped in the scoring zone so the boxes were all 'keepers'

and then we pretty much stayed on our side of the ramp to get as many boxes in the zone, protect our stack, build a stack if we needed to

then hit the ramp at the end.

We were doing very well with this strat in Canada. We were ranked 8th in our second last seeding match, and were averaging 140 points (winning most of the time).

We lost our last match and dropped to 16th, but we were picked in the first draft by the 5th ranked team.
  #43   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-04-2003, 03:21
DougHogg DougHogg is offline
Robot-A-Holic
FRC #0980 (The ThunderBots)
Team Role: Coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Rookie Year: 2002
Location: S. California
Posts: 324
DougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud ofDougHogg has much to be proud of
Kingman joined the "3 second club"

Kingman, Team 60, joined the "3 second to the top" club Thursday at the S. Calif. Regional.

They were clocked 3 times getting to the bins in 3.1 seconds.
__________________
FIRST Team 980, The ThunderBots
2002: S. California Rookie All Stars
2004: S. California: Regional Champion,
Championship Event: Galileo 2nd seed,
IRI: Competition Winner, Cal Games: Competition Winner
2005: Arizona: 1st seed
Silicon Valley: Regional Champion (Thanks Teams 254 and 22)
S. California: Regional Runners Up (Thanks Teams 22 and 968)
  #44   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-04-2003, 09:45
Gope Gope is offline
Registered User
#0016 (Bomb Squad)
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Mountain Home, AR
Posts: 230
Gope is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally posted by KenWittlief
If you draw out the line your bot follows from starting position, to the boxes, and calculate the max possible acceleration, including the turn, then you are pushing the laws of physics to get there in less than 3 seconds.
The problem with your calculations is that you most probably did everything with linear movements which are very slow at turning. However, if you use radial movements (maybe a turret wheel or a deployable caster) your turning speed as considerably higher and thus it is very possible to hit the boxes in 2.5 seconds or maybe even less.
__________________
College and its wonders. First year and alot of other FIRSTs.
  #45   Spotlight this post!  
Unread 04-04-2003, 11:39
Joe Matt's Avatar
Joe Matt Joe Matt is offline
Wake Up Get Up Get Out There
no team
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Rookie Year: 2001
Location: CAK
Posts: 5,067
Joe Matt has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Matt has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Matt has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Matt has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Matt has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Matt has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Matt has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Matt has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Matt has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Matt has a reputation beyond reputeJoe Matt has a reputation beyond repute
My philosophy on ramp speed is this: slow and steady wins the race, sometimes. You have to find out how well your opponents do on the ramp to accurately get on top and do some programing on the fly. I think if you go slower than usual and get more bins and are more accurate, then that's the best idea for slower opponents. But for a fast bot, a one time sprint would be worth it in the long run. I stand by our mentor Mr. Cook in saying that auton is a PART of the solution of the game. The rest is robot capabilities and driver control.

This game cannot be won by auton. Ever. I even have proof if you don't believe it.
__________________
Closed Thread


Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
time change David Kelly Chit-Chat 14 06-04-2003 23:10
Solution to Timing Loops Steven Carmain Programming 39 10-02-2003 13:33
Time to top of ramp Jestin Hashop Rules/Strategy 3 31-01-2003 17:04
How long should production time be??? archiver 1999 4 23-06-2002 23:16
need help with time zone! Ken Leung General Forum 6 25-06-2001 12:44


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 21:52.

The Chief Delphi Forums are sponsored by Innovation First International, Inc.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © Chief Delphi