The Goals of FIRST

[Ian W.]

This has got to be the worst idea involving FIRST that I have ever seen.

My team depended heavily upon an engineering student (if you want to be technical), an electrical/software engineer, a materials engineer, the president of a large corporation who is skilled at machining and such, and two large machine shops. except they did nothing but lead us. the students had the final say on everything, unless we had no idea what we were doing, in which case we learned for next year.

Personally, I learned all about wiring the robot, and how to do that much better than we had done last year. Made inspections much easier, as well as repairs/additions. Wouldn't have done that without my electrical engineer helping. Other students learned different techniques from the other engineers helping us (I wasn't involved in those areas, so I can say personally what they learned). Next year, my team hopes we can learn even more stuff.

Bottom line is that engineers make up a huge part of the team. I came into FIRST with no idea of how to build a robot. Enigneers taught me, that's the only way I learned. Without them, team 810 wouldn't exist, as well as many other teams, I'm sure.

This seems to be a limiting factor, like the $3500 spending limit from this year's game. Except this one will ultimately kill FIRST, if anything. Yes, there are some things that should be done to level the playing field. This is simply not one of them.

[Redhead Jokes]

Originally posted by KenWittlief
BTW - building the robot itself should only take about 2 weeks of the 6 week program

*little problem with using the word "should"*

if you do the first 2 steps in 2 hours, then spend 5.9 weeks building, what you are doing is not engineering.in the real world, bolting, cutting, wiring, and screwing a machine together is something you get a technician to do -

Ahhhh...is that why on a robotics' team the engineers sit back and watch others scramble like mad men in a "time is of the essence emergency" doing all the technicians work for the remaining 4 weeks.

all the magic in science and engineering happens between your ears.

Love that! Don't have that between my ears, but still love that.

I did learn the magic of a technicians work in their hands when my first husband and I owned a machine shop on the bay in Morro Bay. Government changed the fishing rules for salmon fishing, and all the fisherman were going bankrupt, thus our little machine shop servicing them was threatened with bankruptcy. We got piece work from LA to help keep our head afloat. Our only employee made 30 pieces an hour. Then we had to let her go.

My husband taught me to run the lathe and mill. I ran both machines at the same time. I can still fell the rhythm in my hands, arms, body. I made 60 pieces an hour. It was a piece that allowed IV stands to move the bags of meds up and down. We made 2000 pieces a week.

Didn't understand the math, science or engineering.

Morro Bay didn't want to "let" the machine shop go. They owned the land the machine shop was on. Two years of convincing them we needed to sell the machine shop to other than a machine shop owner.

It's a mini mall now. We escaped bankruptcy within moments.

[KenWittlief]

I dont mean to belittle technicians or machinists - they are part of the engineering design cycle / team, and a good technician or machinist is priceless.

I only wanted to point out that 'building' the robot itself is not actually engineering.

You can be a very successfull (and productive) engineer and never touch anything but pads of paper, a pencil, and your calculator.

Engineers DONT build things - we dont assemble things - we dont fabricate things. We figure out what needs to be built, the best way to build it, what materials and components to build it with, write the SW, Firmware...

To put this into perspective, you will never see a civil engineer design a bridge, then spend the next 6 months on the construction site with a rivit gun in his hand all day, or pouring concrete.

Ive been an electrical engineer for 18 years now - and the only time I ever build a protoype, or fabricate assemblies is when Im building a project of my own, or when there is a 'line down' in the factory [assembly line halted] and a part needs to be altered or fixed immediately to get the production line running again.

There have been several times when I sat at a drill press all day, or solding parts on circuit boards, until the supplier could get the required changes put in. Actually I enjoy those times - its a nice break from what I normally do.

The 6 week design cycle is unusual - maybe thats part of the reason engineers LIKE being on FIRST teams - we dont normally get this much 'hands on' time with equipment and machinery. And part of the reason is, by the time you explain what you need to do to someone else, and they do it, sometimes its faster to just do it yourself. When you only have 6 weeks, then this is true most of the time.

But the whole point is, if you think you can build a robot without any help from the engineers, you are really missing the boat. Your not even on the right pier :c)

[Jeff Waegelin]

Originally posted by KenWittlief
But the whole point is, if you think you can build a robot without any help from the engineers, you are really missing the boat. Your not even on the right pier :c)

Well, what would you say to my team, then? For our first 5 years, we didn't have a single engineer on our team. We just had a shop teacher, an liberal-arts major parent, and a bunch of really smart students. You don't need actual engineers to be successful, if you've got a good group of knowledgeable students. Now, I'm not trying to slam engineers here, but I'm just trying to show you can have a student-run team and still learn a lot and be successful. Sure, you miss out on the "interaction" with engineers, but it gives the students a lot more involvement in the entire process.

[KenWittlief]

If you dont have any engineers or scientists on your team, then what are you learning about science and engineering

and from whom ?!

the whole purpose of FIRST is to give highschool students time to spend WITH scientists and engineers, so they can get some concept of what their lives will be like if they choose to pursue that career

and to show them the light at the end of the tunnel, to encourage them to take up the difficult task - because in the long run its worth it.

I think for some students, the fact that you dont have any engineers on your team has skewed your perspective. Ask any team that does have engineers, if they would rather not have them.

It almost sounds like you have formed an odd sort of reverse-pride on this, " we dont have any and we dont NEED any, and we dont even want any engineers"

"and the other teams shouldnt have any engineers either"

?!

[Jeff Waegelin]

No, not really. I've seen teams with engineers, and I think that there's nothing wrong with that. It's just a different perspective, a different outlook, and a different experience. I'm not against engineers by any means, though the "reverse pride" may be true. My team does pride ourselves on the fact that the students build the robot. We like it that way. We actually did have one engineer helping us this year, and it was nice to get some outside assistance, but most of the design and construction remained with the students. I'm not faulting anyone else for having engineers to help, but I like our way better. It's just the way I've gotten used to.

[Redhead Jokes]

Originally posted by KenWittlief
[b]I dont mean to belittle technicians or machinists - they are part of the engineering design cycle / team, and a good technician or machinist is priceless.

I didn't think you were. I was having a little fun about some of the traditional engineers on our team watching all the other mentors and students, and a few traditional engineers when they were there who did jump in, run around like chickens with their heads cut off cuz of a deadline, while they continue to ponder designs.

I only wanted to point out that 'building' the robot itself is not actually engineering.

And I was a little tickled to realize that my time in the machine shop makes me a TECHNICIAN!

But the whole point is, if you think you can build a robot without any help from the engineers, you are really missing the boat. Your not even on the right pier :c)

[Al Skierkiewicz]

I hate to generalize about anything especially work. Traditional engineering is changing everyday. Large firms still tend to limit what engineers are asked to perform but other firms are getting hands on and more. My position as a Broadcast Engineer, has always been on the outside of traditional engineering because of it's specialty and limited number of qualified engineers. Although we are still referred to as technicians in some documents(contracts and journals), our day to day skills are clearly engineering. With systems integration, RF, high power, digital audio and video, lightning protection and transmission lines as part of our responsibility, it is rare to spend more than a few days at a time at a desk. As a member of a FIRST team, I learn and practice techniques that help me perform better at the job, and come up with unique ideas for challenges I face on a daily basis. Above all, my job is a team effort, as in FIRST, I can't do it alone. Those engineers that I have talked to who are more traditional, relish working with a team for the change of pace, new ideas, and breakneck pace that it brings.