The Manuall will be cracked in...

[Joel Glidden]

Trying to figure out what the game may be from the low cost BOM or the emailed clues is essentially the same thing as trying to decrypt the manual. It's a puzzle, a problem, a challenge. I very seriously doubt anyone involved in this thread has any intent of trying to cheat by reading the rules early. Its just that some of us are simply enticed by the challenge of a good puzzle. Also, anyone with the tools and the knowledge it would take to decrypt the manual would also know that cracking it before 12pm EST 1/10/2004 is about as likely as ... something very unlikely.

-Joel

[sanddrag]

How about if it's just for fun you all try to hack the test file? I know you have the password but your the computer hacking into it doesn't so wouldn't that satisfy you all just the same?

[OneAngryDaisy]

Originally Posted by Joel Glidden

Trying to figure out what the game may be from the low cost BOM or the emailed clues is essentially the same thing as trying to decrypt the manual. It's a puzzle, a problem, a challenge. I very seriously doubt anyone involved in this thread has any intent of trying to cheat by reading the rules early. Its just that some of us are simply enticed by the challenge of a good puzzle. Also, anyone with the tools and the knowledge it would take to decrypt the manual would also know that cracking it before 12pm EST 1/10/2004 is about as likely as ... something very unlikely.

-Joel

I really have to disagree with this post and a lot of other similar ones.. FIRST was doing something thoughtful releasing this manual early, i remember having to smack my computer last year when it refused to download the manual thanks to a overdose of other FIRSTers downloading it. Lets not turn something 'nice' in something that FIRST would regret. If it was a simple code, not a complex encryption then sure go ahead and take a hack, but because they put such a elaborate encryption in i think its a hint to be patient. Let's just thank them for thinking of us instead of trying to cheat..

sorry if i came off a bit harsh-

[Ryan Albright]

I think we all hear believe in fair advantage and i hope that no one cracks it. but if you want to waste yoru time and break Gracious Profesonlism (sorry butchered that) then go ahead but remeber you are lowering respect with others casue FIRST is all about having fun why bother cracking it part of the fun is waiting till saturday

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

actually I dont need the manual for the first couple days anyway - our team will spend the first meeting or two analysizing the game, how you score points, to determine what our robot needs to do to score the most points under the worst case conditions

all we need for that is the description of the game, and how to calculate the score at the end.

Thats excatly what the manual contains. Physical limits (field description) and scoring rules. Throw in a few other offlimit things, and you have a game shaped around what FIRST says you can and can't do.

Just watching the kickoff can be misleading. I recall in the past where people said, "but Dean said x durring kickoff!" as justification for something that didn't wasn't in compliance with the rules. The written rules are Law.


Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hacking is terrorism according to the Patriot Act.

[pauluffel]

I think it would be more fun to try and guess what the password would be, because it seems most likely that it would be something logical, rather than a random string of characters becuse 128 is so secure (I mentioned it to my CS teacher and received a skeptical look and the reply "large prime encryption? you could maybe crack it in a month or so" [and she's been playing with computers for quite a while, but if a month is wrong, cool] ).

I doubt I'll have the time to try out fun phrases (and if I did, I would close the file rather than reading, because cheating is no fun) but it would be fun just to see that creativity is more powerful complex encryption.

[DanL]

I think everyone needs to stop being serious and realize this thread was supposed to be humorous, much like how all of us are taking wild and shot-in-the-dark guesses to the game in other threads...

[Jeremy_Mc]

Originally Posted by pauluffel

I think it would be more fun to try and guess what the password would be, because it seems most likely that it would be something logical, rather than a random string of characters becuse 128 is so secure (I mentioned it to my CS teacher and received a skeptical look and the reply "large prime encryption? you could maybe crack it in a month or so" [and she's been playing with computers for quite a while, but if a month is wrong, cool] ).

I doubt I'll have the time to try out fun phrases (and if I did, I would close the file rather than reading, because cheating is no fun) but it would be fun just to see that creativity is more powerful complex encryption.

My guess is that the password is this year's game name (like ZoneZeal in 2002, et al.).

Yeah...the encryption they used is really secure. I'm sure they wouldn't use a short password that would be crackable within any conceivable amount of time. I'm positive if they were doing this they'd release it with a password that's going to take a month+ even with a 'supercomputer.'

[Suneet]

I did some research, and from it I estimate that it will take 100 P4 @ 2GHz computers about 24hrs to check every possible password for the 128 bit RSA encryption. Two or three graphics people with access to render farms could get enough processing power to break it fast enough, or one could use a small distributed computing project. Hehe, no I don't think any of us are going to... unless...

[Andrew Rosselet]

I seem to be missing something...Why are we spending so much time and energy for a frivelous *day* (if that) of extra time when we could be working on more important issues such as programming or fundraising?

I see why FIRST has decided upon this solution and it does make sense!

[echos]

For those of who still think its worth it to try and find the password here are sum numbers to crunch.

I got these results from trying the test document.
Computer:
Dual Athlon MPs 1800+ 1.53GHz processors
PC2100 DDR ECC Reg. 512MB
Windows XP Pro

Software:
*Name of software used will be posted after the official kickoff password is given.

Stats:
The method used was Brute-Force with the following set of charactors [A-Z] [a-z] [0-9] with a range 1-15 charactors long.

14,000 passwords per secound average

781,514,782,079,074,318,856,775,914 Possiable Passwords

692,872,793,493,106,442,870,877,008 Passwords before "2004DecryptTest"


In other words for those of you that have bothered to read this far it would take several years just to figure out "2004DecryptTest".

Some more numbers to crunch for you. 62 the number of charactors per chractor length, with the total lenth of 15

62 nPr 15

[Stu Bloom]

Actually I would have to agree with Clark Gilbert regarding the "appropriateness" (is that a word?) of this entire thread. As I am sure the manual is "copyrighted material" and FIRST obviously does not intend for the information to be distributed before Saturday at kickoff.

[Rickertsen2]

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom

Actually I would have to agree with Clark Gilbert regarding the "appropriateness" (is that a word?) of this entire thread. As I am sure the manual is "copyrighted material" and FIRST obviously does not intend for the information to be distributed before Saturday at kickoff.

Heh stupid DMCA.

Honestly, does this thread really look like a serious attempt at cracking the rules? No, its a discussion of the security of RC4 and PDF. Have you seen one person post saying they are tryign to crack the thing? I think not. Really, come on now, if you don't agree with this thread then don't waste your time posting in it.

[generalbrando]

For me, one of the best moments of the build season is that rush you get sitting there waiting for them to reveal the game . If anyone cracks it, don't tell me.

[Cory]

Alright guys, 128 bit encryption is totally secure, at least given the time we have, so stop even discussing the possibilities of cracking it. If anyone actually even tries, in my eyes, that is a disgrace to everyone who participates in FIRST. yeah, most of you probably are joking, but why even joke?



Cory

[Wetzel]

Originally Posted by Rickertsen2

Heh stupid DMCA.

Honestly, does this thread really look like a serious attempt at cracking the rules? No, its a discussion of the security of RC4 and PDF. Have you seen one person post saying they are tryign to crack the thing? I think not. Really, come on now, if you don't agree with this thread then don't waste your time posting in it.

If everyone agreed with each other, it would be a very boring place.
Last year there were threads about weather or not collusion was good or bad,
but no one said that if you didn't agree that you shouldn't speak up.

*fails to finds words to express the validity of opposing views/thoughts*

Wetzel
~~~~~~~~~
Variety is the spice of life.

[dlavery]

Originally Posted by swando

eh i would say technically yes, but in reality no. i doubt it would be illegal to crack the manual password, this is more of an intellectual challenge.

Whoa. That sounds suspiciously like the standard excuse that virtually every serious hacker has used over the years - even when committing blatantly illegal acts. "It was just an intellectual challenge - I didn't mean to do anything wrong" is no excuse for breaking the rules or violating the law. Joking or not, I think you are trying to walk a very tight line with that attitude.

In our society we have come to accept "I didn't mean to" excuses as a rationale for irresponsible behavior. Some famous sports figures have refined it to an art form. Pete Rose bets on baseball, in full, knowledgeable violation of the rules of the league, and then basically says "I didn't really hurt anyone, and besides I am so good at the game that I deserve to be in the Hall of Fame anyway." And a whole lot of baseball fans say he is right! Mike Tyson bites off Evander Holyfield's ear, and uses the excuse "I just got caught up in the moment - twice." He admits on national TV that he hit his wife hard enough to throw her across the room, calling it "the best punch I ever threw." But it is OK "because she made me mad," and nothing happens. The governor of Texas gives his OK to pay amateur players at SMU because "it would be good for the state" - despite the fact that it was blatantly illegal. Clem Haskins has his staff write literally hundreds of papers for his basketball players to submit as their own work at the University of Minnesota, and then obscenely refuses to admit that there was anything wrong with the practice, as if the very concept of "plagiarism" didn't even exist.

Somehow we have come to think that wonderful performance ON the field justifies bestial behavior OFF the field. But at some point, you have to stand up and say "wait a minute - you guys are all adults, and you all know better. You want to be treated like grown-ups (and paid grown-up salaries), then you better start behaving like grown-ups. YOU are responsible for your own behavior, and no one else. If you screw up, then YOU are the one at fault. And just saying 'I didn't mean to' doesn't cut it any more."

So why do I care at all about this? Because the quote above says that, on OUR playfield - the environment of the FIRST competition and the community of teams that define the FIRST culture - some may think that it is OK to bend or break the rules, as long as it is covered by the "I'm not trying to break the law, I was just curious" rubric. I am only speaking for myself, but I do not think that is acceptable behavior. I am not satisfied with the attitudes that society finds acceptable. I believe that the best way to change those attitudes is to change society. And one of the best ways to do that is to raise the standards of "acceptability" and then live by them. I would hope that within THIS community, we are trying to do that.

[/end soapbox]

-dave

[Matt Leese]

Originally Posted by dlavery

So why do I care at all about this? Because the quote above says that, on OUR playfield - the environment of the FIRST competition and the community of teams that define the FIRST culture - some may think that it is OK to bend or break the rules, as long as it is covered by the "I'm not trying to break the law, I was just curious" rubric. I am only speaking for myself, but I do not think that is acceptable behavior. I am not satisfied with the attitudes that society finds acceptable. I believe that the best way to change those attitudes is to change society. And one of the best ways to do that is to raise the standards of "acceptability" and then live by them. I would hope that within THIS community, we are trying to do that.

This is going to change the subject a bit but it's the first thing that I thought of after reading this. I should start off by saying that I completely agree with you. My main concern is that FIRST itself doesn't really seem to follow such guidelines. Except, in FIRST case, it's okay to break the rules because the teams spent time designing and building the component. There were major incidents of FIRST allowing teams to overrule FIRST's initial judgements simply by being stuburn occuring in 2002 and there was at least one incident I'm aware of last year.

Consider this a bit of a request to FIRST to hold the community to a high level of standards as far as following the rules of the competition go.

Matt

[Joe Matt]

Well, Dave, while I agree that breaking rules is bad, the simple fact that FIRST wants us to be creative in our decisions and robots sometimes requires us to find loop-holes in the rules. Now, I'm not saying totally illegal stuff, but I mean like the teather idea in 2002. Simply put Dave, I think this whole discussion has gotten out of controll. More hurt feelings and bad reputations will come from this than any more discussion.

http://www.chiefdelphi.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=23313

[Ken Leung]

I posted this in another thread, but I feel like I should repeat it in here. If moderators want to delete this double message, feel free to do so. :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Curiosity is a good thing. It drive people to use their imagination and problem solving skills. But do that justify what you are trying to find out? Well, it depends. It is great that you have good intentions, in this case, trying to learn something. But sometimes good intention isn't good enough. History told us a lot of people had great intentions when they wanted to do something, but their action were not approved by everyone else because of the consequences of those actions, not because they had good intentions.

In order words, a lot of times the rest of your action determines if you are doing something right or wrong. In this case, if you are trying to crack the pdf files FIRST released ahead of time even though they do not wish anyone to read them before the game is revealed, then you violated their trust. It doesn't matter if you keep it a secret and never say anything about it. You are the one who have to live with your action, and its consequences. If FIRST found out and stop providing the pdfs ahead of time in the future, then your action (that you thought was harmless) affected everyone else in the FIRST community. If FIRST never found out? Well, then you will have to live with it the rest of your life. You can probably brag to your friends what you've accomplished, and some may or may not approve.

You may or may not agree with FIRST in releasing these files ahead of time. What's done is done. The important point is FIRST trusted everyone to wait until Saturday morning. What you do with that trust is up to you.


Like JosephM said, this topic is probably beaten to death. Chances are, FIRST will think twice about it next year. No need to argue what's right or wrong. At the end, all of you is responsible for your own action. It is time like this when you test out who you truely are. I just hope you don't find something you dislike about yourself.


Let's take a break, go get yourself a cup of hot tea (or whatever suits you), sit in front of the fire place or TV, and relax :-). You are about to approach insanity in the next few months. Enjoy your sanity while you can.