pic: Team 188 Closer Look

[CD47-Bot]

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[Max Lobovsky]

This appears to just drive one side of the robot. If thats true, how can you possibly use even 1/2 of the power available to you here? Wouldnt your draw much more than 120 amps with the six biggest motors running simulataneously and then say... trying to push something immovable? Can your wheels utilize this much power?

[thoughtful]

this has been done before, your motors dont have as much load on them when they are in a gearbox like that, coupled with other motors. The share the load. Also this might be a problem becuase of the extended use of motors this year but i doubt it. I hope it works out for these guys, and yes they will use that power to bully the 2-motor drives around

[Steve W]

True this has been done before. We did last year. No blown fuses, just broken chains. Using 35 chain this year with some improvements.

[Max Lobovsky]

well assuming two motor limited 2+ motor robots get into a pushing match. Their current draw can sky rocket to over 450 amps for a drill+chip or nearly 600 for this beast! Now what i was imagining is this robot locks its motors. I dont know the specific types of breakers used, but its possible to destroy stuff before something blows. if they dont have all the breakers working properly, they could probably melt even the 6 gauge wire itself pretty quickly.

I understand that locking the drivetrain is unlikely with so much power (unless of course a screw driver some how gets jammed in there ) But regardless, three motors seems useless. Basically, i dont understand why anything more than a drill and an FP is needed because when running both at max power, the total current draw is already pushing 130 or so. Why design something that has a maximum power that you cant even utilize. Also, three motors must introduce a very large amount of ineffeciencies because of motor curves not matching.

Because of the proliferation of 2 and 3 drive systems, I must have something very wrong in my analysis, or maybe i have discovered the key to the perfect drivetrain

[thoughtful]

Originally Posted by maxlobovsky

well assuming to motor limited 2+ motor robots get into a pushing match. Their current draw can sky rocket to over 450 amps. Now what i was imagining is this robot driving against a wall or something that locks the motors, that would put their draw at like nearly 600. I dont know the specific types of breakers used, but its possible to destroy stuff before something blows. if they dont have all the breakers working properly, they could probably melt even the 6 gauge wire itself pretty quickly.

Basically, i dont understand why anything more than a drill and an FP is needed because when running both at max power, the total current draw is already pushing 130 or so. Why design something that has a maximum power that you cant even utilize. Also, three motors must introduce a very large amount of ineffeciencies because of motor curves not matching.

Because of the proliferation of 2 and 3 drive systems, I must have something very wrong in my analysis, or maybe i have discovered the key to the perfect drivetrain

maxlobovsky, your concerns are right that the "theoratical" current draw of their robot will be very high, coupled with their spikes, e.t.c it might even be 500 AMP. But will they ever hit tht point?, i mean if there are in a pushing match against someone who has a 2 motor drivetrain, whose fuse will reset first? the 2 motor drive train because it has more load on individual motors. The motor curves can be very accurately matched with some testing and good programming, basically making tables and having different values at different point for the motors so they run on almost same RPMs always. Also if there is a very minor different its unnoticeable, and because they are not using the transmission on their drill, all are raw DC motors, they will help each other, not overlaod each other.

Though it would be interesting to see them go against someone with 3 motor drive. They both might reset their breakers .

[Max Lobovsky]

Originally Posted by thoughtful

maxlobovsky, your concerns are right that the "theoratical" current draw of their robot will be very high, coupled with their spikes, e.t.c it might even be 500 AMP. But will they ever hit tht point?, i mean if there are in a pushing match against someone who has a 2 motor drivetrain, whose fuse will reset first? the 2 motor drive train because it has more load on individual motors. The motor curves can be very accurately matched with some testing and good programming, basically making tables and having different values at different point for the motors so they run on almost same RPMs always. Also if there is a very minor different its unnoticeable, and because they are not using the transmission on their drill, all are raw DC motors, they will help each other, not overlaod each other.

Though it would be interesting to see them go against someone with 3 motor drive. They both might reset their breakers .

I've updated my post slightly. What im really saying is that it is useless to sue the 6 biggest motors when you could get essentially the same effective power out of 2 motors (and not even the drill and chip). Of course they may be trying to keep their motors in the most efficient part of the curve, but all the extra stuff that this drivetrain requires (bigger, heavier gearbox, more wiring and controller, etc) probably kills that gain in efficiency

[pras870]

I've seen a number of teams using multiple motors for their drive system this year. Personally, I don't see this game as being like last year and being 1 big shoving match. I think that even a simply drive system using a very simple motor will be fine. However, This drive train looks immense. Looks like the Fisher Price motor, Drill, and Atwood. This must be one of the fastest and most powerful robots i have seen so far this year.

[thoughtful]

Originally Posted by pras870

I've seen a number of teams using multiple motors for their drive system this year. Personally, I don't see this game as being like last year and being 1 big shoving match. I think that even a simply drive system using a very simple motor will be fine. However, This drive train looks immense. Looks like the Fisher Price motor, Drill, and Atwood. This must be one of the fastest and most powerful robots i have seen so far this year.

I totally agree with you, i am sure they have their own reasons for doing that. But i just wanted to get it clear that it gives you some superiority in you drivetrain. Though you might have to compropise a bit on your arm or lifter, unless you use a clutch, but that would need a lot of experience.

[Hinkel Y.]

It worked well with us last year with Blizzard 4 although last year we broke a chain every few matches... But we might see some pushing matches like last year's...
The image of the gearbox is pretty much to scale about an inch give or take...

[Hinkel Y.]

Originally Posted by thoughtful

...Though you might have to compropise a bit on your arm or lifter, unless you use a clutch, but that would need a lot of experience.

I'm just gonna say, we're overweight (counting in battery and everything) and finding stuff to drill out/sand down... But thanks to our genius we've got this gearbox together to work perfectly...

[Soukup]

OMG....

u guys got it to work. Amazing. If it works like last years in the slightest way.....u will win big. Many teams have no idea how much speed and power these guys had last year.

[Max Lobovsky]

Originally Posted by Hinkel Y.

It worked well with us last year with Blizzard 4 although last year we broke a chain every few matches... But we might see some pushing matches like last year's...
The image of the gearbox is pretty much to scale about an inch give or take...

depends on your monitor

I guess i can't really argue about drivetrains until i get more experience. Its just that i dont understand why my analysis is incorrect.

[thoughtful]

i remember and look forward to meet them again this year, their robot was great only the yellow delphi and the little blue robot with cross bars had power to match theirs

[pras870]

Originally Posted by Hinkel Y.

But we might see some pushing matches like last year's...

I agree we might see some pushing matches, but they will be minimal at most. With the way the game was designed last year, a lot for teams figured it would be like battle bots from the begginning. It turned out they were right. With the Hill having 25 points (don't really remember), it was obvious a lot of teams would try for this, and they did. That meant keeping other teams off to optimize points.

However this year, reminds me of 2001? I'm not sure which one, but it was the year with the ramp and balancing the 2 goals. It seems like FIRST looked at the game this year, and realized they were going in the wrong direction. Looking at how the game is described and going to be played, it seems like pushing will be at very minimal.

I am not saying pushing will not be a factor, because it will in very rare instances. This game is more about strategy and robot effectiveness, not so much brute strength. Adding the 2x ball and the maneuvers it take, is very reminiscent of past FIRST games, which it seems like they are going back to, which I'm glad to see.