Controversy at the SCRRF Scrimmage -- opinions needed!

[Matt Ryan]

Good Advice: don't even THINK of approaching a ref at a true competition to contest a call...at best, they'll walk away, at worst...they'll hold a grudge against you. And since they're rulings are FINAL, they can do whatever they want.

Even if it was a BLATANT, DIRECT contradiction of the rules, don't bother even talking to them. They won't listen. Its over, its done with, move on. Concentrate on your next match and not on the ref's call of the previous match(es).

[ahecht]

Originally posted by Andy330
Even if they could not foresee the impending problems, they were called for entanglement more than once, so they could have then removed their device and avoid any further problems.

Actually, it was our understanding that BeachBots was called for entangling a goal in our first round when a goal got stuck on their tether -- our "carpet" was never approached by robot or goal. We didn't remove our device because it hadn't yet caused a problem. We did receive a warning, but we addressed the specific issues the judge complained about.

Originally posted by Andy330
Furthermore, after their offenses were called, they refused to give up, even when the matches were long over. A team member of 992 came up to one of the refs and started cussing and complaining about how horrible the call was. This is the exact opposite of gracious professionalism. May I inform you that neither of the refs were supposed to ref by themselves, much less the whole day. It was the other teams who didn't fufill their responsibility by submitting refs to help. May I also remind 992 that the refs at the regionals and nationals are sure to be much more strict, and the teams might be disqualified for the rest of the competition simply for voicing their disagreement.

I was not aware that this occured, and I will bring this up at our next general meeting Tuesday. I have the upmost respect for the judges, who I am sure were doing the best job they could. There is no excuse for this behavior from our team, and this issue will be fixed.

I also wanted to address the issues of ungracious non-professionalism from our team here. I was not aware that after we initially approached the judge with the Team Update on the earlier issue, that several rather excitable members of our team (and one excitable parent) had also come up to him on several occasions about the same matter. I was also not aware that after the final ruling, these same team members approached him yet again. These people have since received a firm talking to, and rules have been set regarding who is and is not allowed to talk to officials, and under what circumstances. We should've had these rules in place going into the scrimmage, but as a rookie team, it didn't occur to us.

I also was not aware that anyone had been hostile towards other teams that were offering advice, and this issue will be addressed at our general meeting tomorrow. In fact, I will bring this entire thread to show them. I am as dissapointed in team members acting this way as you all are.

It is my fault for not making sure that everyone on the team understood the spirit of the competition -- many of them still see it like BattleBots -- and we will take whatever measures are necessary to make sure that those who are not willing to accept the philosophy of gracious professionalism are kept where they cannot cause any trouble. I appologise on our team's behalf, and assure you all that this inexcusable breach in professionalism has been fixed.

[Matt Ryan]

The rules say that the ref's ruling is FINAL...they really don't care if they made a screwup. Even if they say they did, they WILL NOT take it back. And remember, there are no rematches this year (only replays if the field falls apart).

[ahecht]

We understood that completely -- when we initially approached the judge with the Team Update, or intention was to make sure that the judge had seen FIRST's ruling on teams pushing the goal over a tether device so that in future rounds this would be taken into consideration (although that situation didn't occur again). However, it appears that some of my teammates did't accept this, and again, there will be consequences for these people.

[Sean_330]

I would like to clarify that the Refs of the SCRRF have no hard feelings toward team 992. They just need to realize that had their mentors and students acted that was towards the refs they most likely would have been DQd for those actions. I know in the heat of competetion that sometimes tempers get high, and some people become irritated. I would encourage everyone to keep their cool. It may be hard, but it will all work out in the end.

ALL ROOKIE TEAMS: Please make sure that you dont let your students approach the refs. Even if they do make a mistake, their rulings are final and they can't change them. Arguing will only serve to make the refs aware that your team may indeed have an attitude problem.


Finally, FIRST is a learning experience, Gracious Professionalism is not something learned overnight, however, if we all work with the FIRST officials everything will run smoothly at the regionals.


Sean Roberts
Head Ref, SCRRF

[Matt Ryan]

Originally posted by ahecht
We understood that completely -- when we initially approached the judge with the Team Update, or intention was to make sure that the judge had seen FIRST's ruling on teams pushing the goal over a tether device so that in future rounds this would be taken into consideration (although that situation didn't occur again). However, it appears that some of my teammates did't accept this, and again, there will be consequences for these people.

What you were trying to do doesn't matter. The fact is there that you went up to a judge to say he made the wrong call. Thats a big no-no that could have severe consequences for you in later rounds.

[A. Snodgrass]

Zan before you take all the blame on yourself understand that it is also the place of your adult mentors to encourage, teach, and show gracious professionalism. You cant control them and they are supposed to be acting as your role models. Take responsibility only for your own actions, and let blame lay where it lay.
However if this behaviour were to occur at a regional I agree with matt that there WOULD be trouble, and it would hurt you in future rounds.

[mnkysp6353]

Thank you very much Zan for bringing up the mistakes to your team. That is very professional of you and i commend you on it.
I am hoping that your team will be issuing a formal apology to all of the individuals and teams wronged.

On the other hand i came out of this event with a totally different feeling. I am not at all sad we lost . I on the other hand came away accomplishing one of my goals in robotics which was to be on an alliance in the finals with team 60. It was great and i will remember this forever team 60.So there you have it, we lost and im happier then a clam.

[Sean_330]

Team 702, the bagel bytes themselves were a great example of gracious professionalism. They did not argue with the refs once. When things did not go their way, they were gracious about it. For a second year team, 702 displayed maturity that is not commonly found until the team has been in this competetion for a number of years.


Sean Roberts
Head Ref, SCRRF
Senior Member, team 330

[SpaceOsc]

702 taking it like a bagel

I am One of the members at culver that was behind the glass at the SCRRF Scrimmage and from my angle the last moments of that round were very tough to call,

i dont feel bitter about the match at all but i can't help but wonder why the robot wasnt pick up to verify that it was entangled and if at regoinals will the judging be conducted in the same manner

[Sean_330]

The reason that the robot was not picked up to verify entanglement was because the entanglement occured during the match. By the time that the match had no time left, the robot was unentangled. However, unfortuately for that alliance of 702, 60, and 992, the opposing teams robot only has to be engangled at ANY POINT in the match rather than the only end. When the robot drove in those crazy circles like Zan observed, it unentangled itself. The point was that it WAS entangled for part of the match. I have contacted FIRST to discuss this with them and a possible need to clarify the rules before the regionals. But as the rules stand, a robot needs only to be entangled for a period of time at ANY POINT in the match to cause a DQ.


Sean Roberts
Head Ref, SCRRF

P.S. Thank you 702 for not feeling bitter and being professional about the whole thing.

P.P.S. Thank you 60 for being the same way.

P.P.P.S. Thank you 992 for taking major steps to teach your team members gracious professionalism before the LA regional.

[Michael Hecht]

Originally posted by A. Snodgrass
Zan before you take all the blame on yourself understand that it is also the place of your adult mentors to encourage, teach, and show gracious professionalism. You can't control them and they are supposed to be acting as your role models.

Amy,

Speaking for both the mentors and the faculty of Oakwood, I add my apologies to the others.

I was the only mentor present for 992. During the matches I was over on the spectator side of the court with the faculty advisor, taking pictures, while one of the parents worked in the pit. Like Zan, I wasn't aware of any problems until they were discussed in this forum. Like Zan, I was mortified by the behavior of a small minority of team members and PARENTS (not the one in the pit). I assure you that the "negative role models" you referred to were not mentors of this team.

As mentors, we are rookies too. My lesson from the scrimmage was the importance of discussing behavior and etiquette with the team in advance, making sure that the message is communicated to any families and friends in attendance, and staying engaged during the competition. I regret that the good behavior of so many was overshadowed by the bad behavior of a few.

Thanks for your understanding.

Mike Hecht (992 Head Mentor).

[Matt Reiland]

I don't agree with any of the comments that state a tether out on the field can not be messed with in any way and its malicious to do so. If a robot has a goal and is trying to score we are allowed to shove, pull, grab to prevent the scoring. A tether in my mind is no different, it is an extension of the robot used for scoring and I feel we are justified to attempt to stop a tether from scoring in the same manner as applies to robots pushing,pulling, grabbing, I guess doing donuts on it is a little extreme but you could say you were a bad driver.

I would hope that the refs see it this way also and don't give any special rulings to some of the crazy tethers we will see.

By the way the lexan tether is a great idea and from the pictures I saw it is pretty hard to mess with it, great idea.

[ahecht]

I'm not saying that robots shouldn't try and prevent the tether deploying or working, i'm saying that robots shouldn't try to entangle themselves on a tether to get the other team DQ'd.

[Michael Hecht]

Originally posted by Matt Reiland
I feel we are justified to attempt to stop a tether from scoring in the same manner as applies to robots pushing,pulling, grabbing,...

Matt,

Good point, but if you shove another robot and get hung up on it, the other bot won't be DQ'd for entanglement! The judges have a tough job.