What do you think

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by [b

KenWittlief[/b]] ok - next year FIRST has to put 3 Zire PDAs in each KOPs, along with a scouting program, and a way to update all of them on the field during alliance selection from the IR beacons :^)

It would REALLY help if FIRST could display the remaining teams on the big screen, according to ranking, updated in real time during the selection process.

If I'm not mistaken they did have this in 2001 and 2002 not sure about 2003 and well pretty much non exsistant in 2004

[jamapor]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

It would REALLY help if FIRST could display the remaining teams on the big screen, according to ranking, updated in real time during the selection process.

At the Arizona regional (or BAE...i can't remember) they did have a list in the background of the top seeded teams and then on the right side they had the teams that were left. it wasn't applicable to our team because we got picked by the 2nd place team, but i'm sure it was very useful in 2nd round picking for other teams

[abeD]

I also seem to remember there being a list of the top teams and who they picked along with the remaining teams on the big screen at the Florida Regional (most clearly remember this in 2002 at KSC). But this year at FL regional I don't think they had it and yes there were also problems with teams picking teams not in the regional or allready picked teams.

[Heretic121]

i think someone metinoed about a top 8 team being picked in the second round... that was us 121... one of the other alliance captains tried to pick us after we had already picked another team... strange indeed... and it was just mass confusion... *shurg*

[ColleenShaver]

I don't know if there is anyway that this could be considered a flaw with FIRST. It is the responsibility of teams to know who would be good partners for them, and prepare themselves. As a team, we make fliers about our strengths and strategies well before any events and have them available to give out to teams. If nothing else, other teams can look and see if you really do what you say you'll do.

Teams also need to go through all the teams at the competition and rank them in terms of who they think is their best options for partners. Just because someone is ranked highly doesn't mean a lower seeded team isn't better suited as a partner, as has been mentioned several times in this thread. We consider many elements when choosing partners, including but not limited to their performance in objectives we see important, their reliability, friendliness/'good to work with', etc. As Ken said, it's about having fun so you want to pick a team you want to work with and can form a real team with.

It's part of the game, and we've all been disappointed before. Teams will prepare as much as they see fit and pick who they pick. You just have to accept that it's what they think is the best, cheer on through the finals, or spend the extra time working on your robot in the pit to make it better.

Originally Posted by jamapor

At the Arizona regional (or BAE...i can't remember) they did have a list in the background of the top seeded teams and then on the right side they had the teams that were left. it wasn't applicable to our team because we got picked by the 2nd place team, but i'm sure it was very useful in 2nd round picking for other teams

Same thing for the Pacific NW Regional.

[kevinw]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

ok - next year FIRST has to put 3 Zire PDAs in each KOPs, along with a scouting program, and a way to update all of them on the field during alliance selection from the IR beacons :^)

It would REALLY help if FIRST could display the remaining teams on the big screen, according to ranking, updated in real time during the selection process.

This was exactly the case at the Detroit regional also. When a couple of teams made it to the top 8 alliances due to intra-top 8 picking, the big screen proved helpful. They weren't quite expecting to be there or prepared with a list of teams that had been picked, etc., so they used the board to help them out. It was nice.

[Eric G]

Perhaps there needs to be some discussion about how to do selections... What do your teams do?

Our team (343) tries to build a list of our top 24 or so choices by Friday evening. It is reconsidered during Saturday. If we are fortunate enough to be in the top eight, the person on the field just has to look up into the stands. One of our people in the stands holds up a chalkboard with the recommended team number. The people on the field cannot keep up with such a complex thing as a shifting list on the fly... (However, that doesn't excuse the team from selecting team numbers that don't exist or from picking someone with a higher seed during the first round of picking.) Our people in the stands are marking off numbers and communicating with our person on the field. If you have a tentative list that is long enough, no matter how many of your top picks are taken, you still have a number ready to call out.

<my opinion>
As for the rankings throughout the day... I honestly don't believe that list is good for very much. Yes, it does provide the list of the top eight teams. However, I believe that some teams do well or poorly because of the teams with whom they are paired. Also, the team ranked 13 might look better than the 30th team on a list of rankings, but the rankings don't tell you if #13 is going to cooperate with you. A helpful #30 can be far better than a stubborned #13. The quality of an alliance partner is to be measured with far more information than just their previous productivity while randomly paired.
</my opinion>

I would enjoy hearing about what your teams do to prepare for alliance selections! Please share!!!

[Jack Jones]

Life is flawed. Your's is yet another example of FIRST imitaiting reality.

[Joe Ross]

One way to work around this would be to take a break between the end of matches and alliance selection. This way, teams have a chance to mull over the final rankings, and talk to the teams they are thinking about picking. I beleive FIRST did this one year, but I can't remember which.

However, it is much better now then it was in 1999. In 1999, you couldn't pick teams ranked in the top 8. Thus, if you fell from 5th to 13th in the last few matches and people didn't realize it, you'd have no chance. However, this year, if teams 1-4 had wanted to pick you, they could have picked you regardless of whether you were 5th or 13th. It would affect the 5th through 8th seeds, if they hadn't noticed it.

I can only think of once that one of my teams have felt "snubbed" in the alliance selection. That was nationals in 1999. We ranked in the mid 30's and I thought we were better then some of the teams that did get picked. However, two teams in close proximity in the pits to us (308 and 312) were also snubbed, and their robot's were even better then ours, so it made me feel better.

[BoyWithCape195]

Originally Posted by Joe Ross

However, it is much better now then it was in 1999. In 1999, you couldn't pick teams ranked in the top 8. Thus, if you fell from 5th to 13th in the last few matches and people didn't realize it, you'd have no chance. However, this year, if teams 1-4 had wanted to pick you, they could have picked you regardless of whether you were 5th or 13th. It would affect the 5th through 8th seeds, if they hadn't noticed it..

No the problem was, we were 2nd, then we lost our last match which put us down to 12th, so only one team would have had us on their list. We were on teams in the top 8's list to accept if choosen by us, but they didnt realize untill after. I think the problem was, the showing of the rankings. They should announce the top eight, then have a break, so teams can then choose who they wanted. Picking would then not be based on assumption from seeing a team high all day and would force people to do more efficient scouting!

[J Flex 188]

almost every regional is like this, although probably not to the extent of what you say happened at UTC =(.

the gracious professionalism slight is pretty much unacceptable anywhere, regardless of how many teams or whos picking you or whatever. but i remember at pittsburgh, there was confusion as well, between whether or not a team would accept, and there was a lot of pressure on the singular representative out there, and one team had basically everyone telling him to do something while he was signing that he was going to do the opposite. we had teams picking other teams who had been picked etc etc. what would help is if during the picking, a live list of teams that have been picked and the pickers (basically teams you cant pick) would be displayed during the selection process on the big screen.

No, I don't think this is a flaw in the system. Its the mistake of the teams that didn't choose you. If your robot was as good as you say it is, they should have had you on their list even though you were in the top eight. In scouting we include everybody above us in ranking and then just cross them off if they choose a team (and not us). I do not think FIRST should change the Alliance Selection procedure. If nothing else, its a suspensful part of the competition.

[SkitzoSmurf]

I would not blame the coincidence on FIRST. There were MANY good teams at UTC, and picking the best partners was very tough. It all depends on the choosing teams strategy. For example my team has a meeting and ranks each team to our specifications, and then ranks whom we wish to pick first, followed by the next ranking team in case our first choice is picked by someone else.
Also, the game this year ranks team by their number of wins, AND THEN qp's. This may be a flaw in FIRST, but I still wouldn't point fingers. I mean, if your team wins all of their matches, GREAT, but if you won by only five points or so, not so impressive, however that puts you up in the ranks. I think teams don't look at ranks, but at qualities, and effectiveness. And if it's not up to their standards, or isn't as great as other teams, your lower on the list to pick from. Now I'm saying this in general to give an example, and have nothing whatsoever against your team. I saw you guys out there, and you were good, so I don't know what happened. On a second note; the alliance captains of the top seeded teams did not seem to be prepared or aware of the alliance choosing rules, so this might have also had an impact on why your team wasn't chosen. I don't know what happened out there. This is a one time instance for your team, and it just happpens. I am sure that your team won't be on a streak of bad luck, so cheer up, and good luck in the future!

[David66]

It is not a flaw in FIRST. They use methods that are MUCh more fair than the NCAA, or other college organizations. They base everything on your overall record, as well as the strength of your opponents (hence being ranked by the number of points they score). The problem rather, is with scouting. When we get ready for an alliance selection we rank EVERY team that we might possibly want, starting with the number one seed. This way if this situation happens, or if we rise in the rankings, we know exactly who we want. THen, once we are on the field and our allianc captain has the bib on, we cross out picked teams/higher seeded teams, thatway NO ONE gets overlooked.