Ungracious and unprofessional...

[Tyler Olds]

A good way that I look at things is if my robot was pushed over, it wasn't the other teams fault, but it was a design flaw on behalf of my team.

Robots should be made robust and durable; I think that preventing your robot from tipping over falls into this category.

When I am driving in the middle of a match, I normally don't have time to stop and think "oh maybe I shouldn't try to push their robot because it will break, or it tips over easily” my mind is set on winning the match.

[Ashley Weed]

In my experiences driving, I had one robot that was prone to tipping, and we tipped ourselves all the time going across the ramp in 2001. In 2003, we were flipped once on top of the ramp. I believe it was an accident as there were several robots attempting for the ramp at the same time, and we got the short end of the stick. However, if you build a robust robot, you will get yourself out of the situation. We were able to use our mast and arm to lift ourselves upright, and drive onto the platform.

..... I have seen a lot of tipping this year, I would suggest talking it over with your opponents if you have a problem with it. They might even suggest something to help you prevent from tipping in the future.

[tenfour]

Robots will flip...this is just part of the game. The real question is: "Was the opponent solely interested in flipping others?" Simply building a robot with a wedge and gunning for high robots means yes. If you try to block others and flip them as a result, then its just part of the game.

Its no fun being flipped, but its all part of the challenge. Our team had major problems with this the Sunday before ship, but we did a minor redesign of some systems and came out a lot better. Flipping is a real world challenge--even a major one on the Mars Exploration Rover! Is NASA screaming about it?

[KenWittlief]

a person from the team that was pushed away went and really berated the team that did the pushing.

there is a technical term that psychologists use for people who exhibit this type of behaviour:

Sore Loser!

[fred]

Originally Posted by KenWittlief

there is a technical term that psychologists use for people who exhibit this type of behaviour:

Sore Loser!

more like sore winner because they won the match. If they had lost, it still would have been bad, but they won the match, what's to complain about. About tipping, it is just a part of the game and it is hard to tell if it was intentional or not. Example: Last year in Houston, we were with Buzz 175 in the playoffs. I think the refs accused Buzz of tipping and what had been a gigantic win for us turned into a 10-point loss. The whole thing was pretty bad because basically, one robot's arm got tangled up with another robot and both tried to pull away and one flipped. I think that even the other alliance was like "That's a penalty?" Fortunately for us, we were able to come back and win the next match and move on.

[RoteAugen]

very true. Some people need to chill... however, there are some that are right to be mad. In the final match in the BAE regional, the winning alliance double-teamed and flipped team 40 intentionally... twice. the first time 40 was able to right itself using its arm, the second, it was unable to do anything about it. the claim was they were "preventing (them) from climbing the stairs..." by pushing it from one side before it reached them.

I am sure that like team 40, there are other teams that are rightfully angry about flipping, and some that just need to take their licks and learn from them.

this is not a new problem, and I'm sure it may never go away... such is the way of life.

[cbudrecki]

really, getting tipped over is just sometimes part of the game, and unless you design your robot not to tip over, then you should just take it in stride. after all, the audience loves seeing a tipped bot here and there (no, i do not encourage intentional tipping...)

but what i don't like is when teams gang up on other teams. I saw this in a match @ Chesapeake, there was a great team that was just trying to do their thing, and the other teams just ganged up on 'em, even their alliance this is what sets me off. The 'victimized team' was doing quite well in the standings, and the other teams wanted to annialate them. i mean come on people, this is truly the opitomy of ungraciousness and unprofessionalism. If there's a team doing well, you don't try to destoy them, but rather you should go to their pits and congratulate their drivers and mentors for doing such a great job, that is what FIRST is all about.

[LauraN]

Originally Posted by tb222

really, getting tipped over is just sometimes part of the game, and unless you design your robot not to tip over, then you should just take it in stride. after all, the audience loves seeing a tipped bot here and there (no, i do not encourage intentional tipping...)

I think that's an excellent point, getting tipped is part of the game. The audience really reacts to it, and it just makes you look MORE impressive when you're able to right yourselves afterwards. That's always great to watch.

There was some iffy behavior on this topic at the SBPLI Regional. And I use the word "iffy" loosely because I don't really see it as a problem, although some might.

Sometimes when a robot is tipped, the crowd cheers. Which kinda stinks if you're the robot who got tipped :-/ but you can see how people get excited over it. When a robot is tipped, it takes them out of the match unless they can right themselves, and that is an advantage to their opponents.

In one of our matches 3 of the 4 robots where tipped and there was lots of cheering. It seemed like some teams were upset at the reaction to their tipping and were even more enthusiastic to see others tipped. All in all it was a crazy match and I can see how some people may have been offended by the reactions of the crowd and drivers when different robots fell over.

BUT I see it just as part of the game. A similar example was when two teams were going for the bar. Our opponents were about to hook onto it and we managed to slip our hook under theirs. We didn't pull ourselves up but they did. However we were excited that we got our hook under theirs, because that would disqualify their hang. Yes it kind of stinks but it's just another part of the game. The other team wasn't too happy with us (which made things awkward, since we were their next alliance partner ), but it's all part of the game.

Just as tipping is. So as long as it's not intentional and nothing breaks, I think everyone can just relax about it.

So I think there may have been some hurt feelings, but I thought that, in general, SBPLI put on a great display of that whole gracious professionalism thing.

[David66]

A percentage of these "flippings" are intentional. I know because we were the subject to one such attempt. We were in the middle of a qualifying match when another robot strolled next to us and lifted a 3 foot arm under our robot, flipping us forward. I thought it was just an akward collission until after the match when i was shown video footage as well as digital pictures of this arm going under our robot, then raising in an attempt to flip us (i say attempt because we have a phenomenal arm operator who was able use the arm and a mobil goal to save us). I am very curious as to what other function this arm serves and intend on checking things out at our next regional. i also plan on checking to see if this team has treated other teams in this way. if they have, i intend on conforonting the referees about it. this behaviour is very unFIRST. Perhaps the team does not realize this, as many teams are fairly new and dont have the "FIRST thing" figured out yet. I do however hope that they will realize that their actions are hurtful, and somewhat resented.

[fred]

Originally Posted by David66

A percentage of these "flippings" are intentional. I know because we were the subject to one such attempt. We were in the middle of a qualifying match when another robot strolled next to us and lifted a 3 foot arm under our robot, flipping us forward. I thought it was just an akward collission until after the match when i was shown video footage as well as digital pictures of this arm going under our robot, then raising in an attempt to flip us (i say attempt because we have a phenomenal arm operator who was able use the arm and a mobil goal to save us). I am very curious as to what other function this arm serves and intend on checking things out at our next regional. i also plan on checking to see if this team has treated other teams in this way. if they have, i intend on conforonting the referees about it. this behaviour is very unFIRST. Perhaps the team does not realize this, as many teams are fairly new and dont have the "FIRST thing" figured out yet. I do however hope that they will realize that their actions are hurtful, and somewhat resented.

Be careful about asking about the arm, most teams do have arms to either hang or manuevre the big ball. We have an arm for hanging although thanks to our arm operator, we have used it to flip ourselves back-up. Just to anyone out there, keep an eye on team 341's arm operator, he is really fantastic at flipping us back up with the arm if we've been flipped. We had this one match at Nats last year I think, we were flipped with like 10-15 secs left, we were flipped, but we flipped back up and then our driver (also very good) got us back onto the ramp and got us 25 pts just as time expired. Great moment. But anyway, arms do have a whole lot of functions so be careful what you say to various teams.

[Marc P.]

Reading through this thread has brought a couple of thoughts into my head. First, with regards to intentional tipping, I do recall rules in previous years against intentional tipping. I was a ref at nationals last year, and I remember having a number of discussions and throwing a few flags for intentional tipping. Of course contact is a part of the game, but if your strategy is to capitolize on a vulnerable situation for the sake of taking the glory of a high rank, I think that sort of sidesteps the meaning of FIRST.

Second, I wonder what the intention behind tipping is at all, besides simply winning the match... I recall from my first year in FIRST, in 2000, there was a match where one robot accidentally tipped an opposing robot over. Rather than take the easy win, that same opposing robot used their arm to right the tipped robot in a fantastic display of gracious professionalism. It was that match which inspired a huge portion of my interest in FIRST, knowing that it's not just another mindless athletic competition. Whenever I see or hear about maliciously trying to gain an upper hand in a match via tipping or descoring or whatever, it makes me sad to think of what FIRST is becoming as it grows, and I remember back to that match, and wonder what happened. I know there are plenty of teams out there who would still right a tipped robot, but people coming into this competition expecting to see battlebot like destruction makes me wonder why these people are in FIRST to begin with.

Just my two cents.