YMTC: Bluabot and Redabot hanging?

[Natchez]

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you can play ref and make a call. YMTC situations are not meant to represent situations that have occurred at competitions.

During a qualifying match, Bluabot amazes the crowd by hanging on the bar during the first 5 seconds of the match. With 15 seconds remaining, Redabot reaches for the bar and Redabot's hook lands directly on top of the Bluabot hook. While hoisting itself up, Redabot pulls Bluabot all the way to the end of the bar where the Bluabot hook is touching the fitting connecting the vertical support and horizontal bar. At the end of the match, both Bluabot and Redabot are both off of the ground and both inside the vertical supports BUT Redabot's hook is not touching the bar. If you were to dissolve Bluabot with the, now-patented, Magical Bot-Disappearing Potion (MBDP), Redabot's hook would drop about 1 inch and rest nicely on the bar and Redabot would remain hanging.

YOU MAKE THE CALL! Do you ...
(please note that you can choose multiple options with this YMTC)

Please base your ruling on the 2004 rules. If you find a specific rule that addresses this situation, please share it with everyone.

[Elgin Clock]

I love this thread.. It's my new favorite thread.

HANGING is defined as DIRECTLY SUPPORTED by the bar.
I give Bluabot the 50 points, but deny Redabot the 50 pts, because Redabot is INDIRECTLY SUPPORTED by the bar by hanging on Blueabot.

Sounds familiar, in UTC this past weekend we were Blueabot and we lost cause of a mysterious new rule that I believe the refs. made up that says if Blueabot is removed and Redabot would fall straight down on the bar, then they are hanging. If anyone saw this as an official rule, I would really like to know where it is.

I would really like to see this scenario adressed in the FIRST Q&A Forums.

[10intheCrunch]

The definition of SUPPORTED: if the "supporting" object were removed...the robot would not remaing HANGING.

and HANGING: A robot is considered hanging if it is directly supported by the horizontal bar and not touching the carpet, platform or goals.

This seems pretty cut and dry to me...Red is not supported by Blue, as the removal of Blue would mean that Red was still hanging. I don't buy the argument that touching the vertical bar means you aren't hanging--the vertical bar doesn't "support" the robot in any way (the horiz bar has to move inside the vertical to at least some degree, so lets say that the vertical par is just a force field...Blue is hanging).

So I voted "something else" because I award both teams 50 points for hanging.

edit: in response to "directly hanging" disqualifying Red, I believe that the definition of supported takes precedence over directly...I don't understand why FIRST would put that word in other than to give lawyers something to feast on, but if the presence of Blue's hook did not assist in Red's ascent, it in no way disqualifies Red.

[mtaman02]

This is fairly simple:

Blue Robot gets 50pts. for Hanging.
Red Robot gets 0pts. for hanging. Red Robot must be supported by the chin up bar itself and must not have any contact that would LOOK like the red robot is being supported by another robot.


As for a specific rule I'm trying to locate

Definition of Hanging: A Robot Is Considered Hanging from the pull up bar if it is directly supported by the horizontal bar and its not touching the carpet, platforms or goals

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by mtaman02

This is fairly simple:

Blue Robot gets 50pts. for Hanging.
Red Robot gets 0pts. for hanging. Red Robot must be supported by the chin up bar itself and must not have any contact that would LOOK like the red robot is being supported by another robot.
As for a specific rule I'm trying to locate

Thank you Thank You Thank You!!!!!!!!!!!!

Definition of hanging is DIRECTLY, not INDIRECTLY SUPPORTED by the bar.
Those words are good enough for me.

[ggoldman]

According to a very reliable source:

The robot touching the fitting would not count. If the lower robot was removed and the upper robot would be hanging, it would count.

Therefore, I would not award the lower bot points. I would give 50 to the upper one.

Gabe Goldman

[10intheCrunch]

This seems to have been discretionary at regionals. Referees at Arizona called robots touching the fitting not-hanging, but I haven't heard of this happening at other regionals. But as this is a You Make the Call thread, please post what you think should be the call, based on the rules and your judgment...I really would like to hear people's reasons for not calling Blue hanging .

[mtaman02]

Originally Posted by ggoldman

According to a very reliable source:

The robot touching the fitting would not count. If the lower robot was removed and the upper robot would be hanging, it would count.

Therefore, I would not award the lower bot points. I would give 50 to the upper one.

Gabe Goldman

if the lower robot is touching a part of the chin up bar that classifies itself not hanging 0 points for the lower robot and the robot which is hanging on the already illegal robot well he gets 0 b/c he's not touching the bar.


I was not going to lean towards this but this should have been an issue at some of the already now past regionals

At the J&J Mid-Atlantic Regionals towards the end of the match 3 robots hung 2 of which had enough of clearence between any parts of the chin up bar that could be considered illegal. As for the 3rd robot well he was hanging on his opposing alliances robot and the points he tried to obtain were now void all b/c he was touching the bar.

The question I have now is same situation except if the robot is hanging on another robot can he deploy a "second Hook" to either side of where he is already at (we'll say about 2" to either side) and is cleared from touchin any illegal parts. And the way the second hook grabs the bar makes it look like the robot is being supported by the second hook and not the first. Question is would this be illegal or legal You be the judge another twist to this partiuclar YMTC.


I just want to say Kuddos to Natchez for coming up with this this would be an excellent test for those wanting to referee next year Thanks again!

[Greg Perkins]

maybe im not grasping it all the way...

but at BAE, 319(highway bob) hung in all their matches...although to hang they got the corner of the bar, touching the pole, and the fittings...although they were not supported by the bar or fittings, would this still be annulled?


i voted for not giving the 50 pts to the redabot... at the end of the match, is the end of the match...if the robot is ontop of another robot/s appendage, and the match is called...thats it...no more second tries...
its like playing hockey...say you have the puck... once the buzzer rings, thats THE END...you dont finish your drive to see if you score or not...

think logically folks

[ggoldman]

It does not have to touch the bar. If you were to remove the lower robot with a vaporation gun or what not, the top robot would have been touching the bar and hanging. I would have called it fair.

Unless they were both on the same team...

-Gabe

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by ggoldman

It does not have to touch the bar. If you were to remove the lower robot with a vaporation gun or what not, the top robot would have been touching the bar and hanging. I would have called it fair.
Unless they were both on the same team...
-Gabe

But, if this is true. Can anyone at all please point out in the rule book where it says this specifically?? Can you do that??? Anyone? Anyone at all??
I really need to know this.

[ggoldman]

I would check the updates, cause I knew an issue came up like this while I was reffing. I am definate about touching the connector though, that doesnt count (if that is the way it has been called during the matches).

Basically, when you get down to it, as long as it is called consistantly throughout all the matches, it is an even playing field, and therefore fair. But also, this assumes that no rules are broken in the rulebook by doing this.


-Gabe

[Elgin Clock]

Originally Posted by ggoldman

Basically, when you get down to it, as long as it is called consistantly throughout all the matches, it is an even playing field, and therefore fair. But also, this assumes that no rules are broken in the rulebook by doing this.
-Gabe

Although I would tend to agree with this if you were only at 1 event, this leaves you disillusioned as far as the rules are concerened if you attend multiple events where the refs will more than likely be different people, and the rule here - fragile as it is - will be called two different ways. Therefore, NOT GOOD!!

[ggoldman]

I have attended two events thus far, and I have found that the way the head refs call things are very similar to each other. This is due partly to a conference call that ALL head refs participated in, making sure all were set on the rules.

I am sure that at the Championships, all the refs will be on the same level (I hope) therefore ensuring a level field on all the fields.


The thing you have to remember is that the refs are not professionals, and most of them did not go through a 6 week build period memorizing all the rules. As long as they are as fair as they can be to all the teams at thier event, i'd say it passes in my book.

But then again...rules are rules...

aggh...it is a tough topic

-Gabe

[mtaman02]

ok did some checking and i know d.lavery is lirking near by so maybe he can lend a helping hand.

I know hes around I can smell KK from where i'm sitting.

the only thing I found was the Definition of hanging. There is a rule for constituting how the robot is counted by hanging. I checked Section 4 which hosts the game rules and Section 7 which is the tournament rules and neither sections have a set rule unless I'm missing something


Maybe a person like Dave knows where this can be found.