Using non joystick controls with Operator Interface (Hacking Various Controllers)

[Hieb]

It won't be anything that we use this year (I doubt it is really practical), but I am working with one of our students to create a controller that reads the electrical impulses of a muscle (say a bicep squeeze) and converts it into a useable signal. If it works we plan to have a demonstration model at the St. Louis regional.

[Wetzel]

116 has used a steering wheel with an attached throttle control. It was mounted on the same board as the switches. It worked and we competed with it in 2001. I couldn't tell you more about how they implemented it.



Wetzel

[Steven Carmain]

Just a side note, is this really FIRST legal? I can understand modifying a couple pins in a joystick is easy(I don't know about legal, see rules below), but using a game controller is more than likely illegal. Unless it was specially designed for standard 15-pin joystick ports without MIDI In, chances are slim to work. I can't speak for all controllers, but I know the N64 & Gamecube would require special circuitry to operate.

Steven

P.S.
N64 Controller Interface
GCN Controller Interface

(Quoted from Section 5 - The Robot, Rev- C Incorporated 3-3-04)
5.2.8 Custom Circuit Rules
<R49> Additional electronics must be wired to their ATC breaker using a 16 AWG or larger diameter wire.
<R50> The use of additional electronics is intended to allow teams to construct custom circuits for their robots. The custom circuits may be used to indirectly affect the robot outputs, by providing enhanced sensor
feedback to the Robot Controller to allow it to more effectively decide how to control the robot. The custom circuits must draw power from a 20A circuit breaker. Smaller value fuses may be incorporated into the custom circuits for additional protection. All outputs from the custom circuits must be connected
to the analog inputs, digital I/O, TTL Serial Port, or Program Port on the Robot Controller.
<R51> Inputs to custom circuits may be connected to the following sources:
• Circuit breaker outputs
• Speed Controller or Relay module outputs
• PWM or Relay outputs on Robot Controller
• Switches, Potentiometers, the outputs from Current Sensors, Optical Sensors, Motors, and other additional electronics allowed
<R52> Custom Circuits may not:
• Interfere with the operation of other robots
• Directly affect any output devices on the robot, such as by providing power directly to a motor, supplying a PWM signal to a speed controller or supplying a control signal to a relay module. (Custom high impedance voltage monitoring or low impedance current monitoring circuitry connected to the robot’s electrical system are acceptable, because the effect on the robot outputs should be inconsequential.)
• Be used for wireless communication, such as sending or receiving a signal to and/or from the alliance station
• Connect to the radio or tether ports on the Robot Controller

[Nick Fury]

I know there is much talk of what has been done by teams in previous years and I know a lot of it has been pretty cool but what I don't see are diagrams and white papers. If your team has used alternatives to the standard joysticks then please post a white paper or a wiring diagram or something.

BTW, If anyone is interested, I posted a wiring diagram for a joystick last year. It wasn't much but it is still floating around on CD somewhere.

[Wetzel]

Steven,

Those rules apply to the custom circuits that are on the robot itself, not what you use in the player station. I am currently traveling and am unable to locate the rules from 2001, but I know that it was legal then. I will see if I can find anyone on the team that remembers how it was implemented.


Wetzel

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Steven,
The rule you quoted is for the robot controller interface as suggested above. The rules on OI wiring are these...
<R85> The Operator Interface Console designed by your team must fit on the 42” wide by 9” deep shelf in the Alliance Station and The Radio Modem connected to the Operator Interface must be able to reach the mounting bracket on the operator stations. Be sure to leave at least 48” of slack in the 9-pin cable.
And
5.7.2 Operator Interface Sensor Inputs
The exact wiring configuration for the joysticks, switches, potentiometers, LEDs, and analog sensors connected to the Operator Interface is not specified. Teams may wire these devices, within the rules as described below and according to the documentation supplied by Innovation First, in order to create a custom interface for the robot operators.
The second rule goes on to present examples and add a few more restrictions. The greatest of these is that the interface not use any power supply connections to the OI other than the LED outputs and sensor wiring as shown. That leaves a lot open to designing your own human interface. As always, check over the rules when the game is announced for further details, these rules may and often do change each year.

I recently hacked up a controller, just to see what was involved. The switches were easy to handle, but the joysticks were a pain. I had to replace the joystick pots with 100K-ohm versions. The new pots didn't have exactly the same footprint as the old, so it took some effort to get it back together.

Anyway, this controller also has a digital D-pad which is essentially four contact switches (fwd/rev/left/right). I was thinking about changing the software to use the D-pad instead of the joysticks. The big problem is the lack of speed control. The analog joysticks provide about 128 speed gradients in any direction, whereas a digital interface provides two (on or off). I could, of course, use some other buttons to select speed, but I'm not going to get anywhere near 128 different speeds. And I'm guessing it wouldn't be as intuitive to the operators.

I'm wondering if any teams have used a strictly digital interface to control their robots? I'm not talking about digitally encoding the joystick positions; I'm thinking about getting rid of the joysticks altogether.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by WebWader125

Anyway, this controller also has a digital D-pad which is essentially four contact switches (fwd/rev/left/right). I was thinking about changing the software to use the D-pad instead of the joysticks. The big problem is the lack of speed control.

Just add a pot for throttle to your pad switches. I am sure you will be unhappy with it, but it can be done. You will need some software intervention for the switches since you do not want to go from forward to reverse at speed. (This tends to tear the tranny out and leave it in pieces on the floor.) The joysticks are something most people have already learned and translating to robot movement come fairly easily for most drivers.

[Steven Carmain]

Originally Posted by Al Skierkiewicz

That leaves a lot open to designing your own human interface.

(Sorry, I was on vacation...) So, does this mean a processor circuit can be build on the OI(meeting all the other rules). We have thought about doing this before, but always ruled it out due to the rules stating the circuits have to be on the robot. Just curious, could be a YMC(You Make the Call).

[663.keith]

our mentor found this on line and modified it to control our robot. It works reasonably well and can drive our robot easily with the two joysticks. The only problem with this design is that when both thumbs are on the joysticks it becomes reasonably hard to use the other buttons at the same time (ie. trying to raise an arm while driving the bot). We may bring this to the regionals this year if we work all of the kinks out.

link to the controller
http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=FSDAGP-TR

who thinks we should hack a ddr max game "controller" to drive the robot!

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by 663.keith

our mentor found this on line and modified it to control our robot. It works reasonably well and can drive our robot easily with the two joysticks. The only problem with this design is that when both thumbs are on the joysticks it becomes reasonably hard to use the other buttons at the same time (ie. trying to raise an arm while driving the bot). We may bring this to the regionals this year if we work all of the kinks out.

link to the controller
http://www.compgeeks.com/details.asp?invtid=FSDAGP-TR

who thinks we should hack a ddr max game "controller" to drive the robot!

We tried the same controller but it was rejected by the drive team. They wanted something a little more full size and some of us felt that reliability might suffer. Joysticks do get a bit beatup during competition.

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Originally Posted by Steven Carmain

(Sorry, I was on vacation...) So, does this mean a processor circuit can be build on the OI(meeting all the other rules). We have thought about doing this before, but always ruled it out due to the rules stating the circuits have to be on the robot. Just curious, could be a YMC(You Make the Call).

Steve,
The rules for 2004 that apply to your question is...
R86> Teams are permitted to connect a portable computing device (Laptop computer, PDAs, etc.) to the RS232
Output of the Dashboard Port of the Operator Interface for the purpose of displaying feedback from the
robot while competing in Competition matches. Portable computing devices may not be connected to
inputs on the Operator Interface. Please note that AC power will not be available at the playing field so
these devices will have to run on internal batteries.

So I would have to say No to your question. This would give you an unfair advantage over teams that only had switches and pots.

[Venkatesh]

Teams are permitted to connect a portable computing device (Laptop computer, PDAs, etc.) to the RS232
Output of the Dashboard Port of the Operator Interface for the purpose of displaying feedback from the
robot while competing in Competition matches. Portable computing devices may not be connected to
inputs on the Operator Interface

I was always happy with that rule, since it forces humans to be integral parts of feedback systems involved.

Now if only we could build a human which (who?) passed through all data unmodified and in real time... We need a better human...

Last year, we planned and began construction of an audio feedback system for the command team. We never had a chance to finish it, but I will post diagrams et al. as soon as I find them.

[FIRST JerseyKid]

Can you use any joysticks or controls you want?

[CJO]

Basically, see the rules, but unless they have major onboard processors, they are ok. Also, wearable controls are kosher too.