Vetting and Idea: Modular Field Design...

[Justin]

Hi Everyone,

I want you all to vet this idea I had while talking to some fellow FIRSTers at Mayhem this past weekend. We got talking about FIRST's financials and different areas that have a lot of cost associated with them and how FIRST might save some money. One area that seems to have quite a hefty cost associated with it is R+D of the game/field. So I got to thinking what if the field could be made more modular? For example the basic field border and driver stations should not change from year to year, they should be reusable. Okay so there's a large portion of the field done doesn't need to be redesigned or manufactured. Now imagine if you will FIRST being able to keep field objects intact from season to season. After a few seasons they will have amassed quite a few different field objects. Then they could pick from the archive of field parts and simply just mix and match...maybe one year they use the bridge, troths, and the bar. The next year it is maybe the stairs, bar, and puck. You get the idea. In addition the rules can change and sometimes a simple change of the rules or value of an object, doubler, etc. can drastically change the game changing those types of things is far cheaper than building entirely new field obstacles each year. I realize that this approach would have pros and cons. While I'm one who supports having new games each year perhaps, if this were to actually save money, it would be a happy medium?

What do you all think?....

Justin

[henryBsick]

I believe the railing and drivers station are reused and only the carpet and goal are re-done. The other abjects get to beat on by the time all of the minis and demos are done. This year, for the controlls, the rack was new, it had all of the flat pannel scrrens. It will probably be re-used because of its massive cost. But as for the wear and tear of some of the actual goal, and field objects, ugh I think they go through 6 weeks of regionals, nats, and minis out the wa-zoo. Anything salvagable though is golden. You just need a crew to go through old field parts and decide what to keep and what not to.

My $.02
-Henry

[Tristan Lall]

The field borders (including driver stations, rails, and the like) are already reused with minimal modifications from year to year. (You'll notice that on some of the diamond-plate panels on the end walls, there remain square cutouts for ball chutes that were part of a previous game, and have since been covered over with an additional sheet of diamond plate.) Parts are added and removed for whatever the game requires.

The new IFI control unit is definitely going to be reused. (It was intended as a long-term replacement for the previous system.)

As for reusing field components like goals and ramps, do you really want to see another PVC goal, ever again? (See the 2001, 2002 & 2004 games!)

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by Tristan Lall

(You'll notice that on some of the diamond-plate panels on the end walls, there remain square cutouts for ball chutes that were part of a previous game, and have since been covered over with an additional sheet of diamond plate.)

According to my sources, if anyone's interested, that game was Zone Zeal.

One other consideration on reusing year-specific game parts (bars, stairs, goals, ramps, etc.)--where are you gonna store them? I mean, I'll bet that the walls and guardrails already take up a fair chunk of space. I just get the feeling that they'd eventually become the subject of a FIRST garage sale. (Boy, I wish I could be there for one of them!)

While I agree that some changes could be enacted to decrease the expenditures on the field, I belive that FIRST is actually doing very well in this area. Those that said that the field border is reused as well as the control systems would be correct, and as for salvaging field components? Many people on delphi asked if FIRST had a mental block when we saw this years resemblance, in some aspects of play, to past years games. Based on this I do not think that FIRST could viably keep every team returning, we would though , year after year if they did this. I did very much like the notice of the carpet though, maybe re-using carpet sections, they might already, would be a possibility. I just don't know whether the off-season storage and maitinance costs make this worth the time of effort.

Just my 3.41 cents

According to my sources, if anyone's interested, that game was Zone Zeal.

Actually Zone Zeal involved three goals and balls lined along the sides of the arena. I think you may be talking about the game one year previous to zone zeal.

[Ryan Foley]

Originally Posted by Billfred

According to my sources, if anyone's interested, that game was Zone Zeal.

actually it was Dyabolical Dynamics (2001).

Although I like the idea of re-using field objects, after a while it wouldnt work. Eventually FIRST would start repeating things, and people would already know how to handle the field object. Eventually, the game would loose any challenge to playing it. Also, field objects wouldnt last very long, they get beat enough during 1 competition season.

I'm sure FIRST re-uses what it can though, to keep costs as low as possible.

[Marc P.]

The same basic field components have been in use since 2000 (Cooperation FIRST). The field borders and dimensions haven't changed much at all for the past 4 years. The field R & D goes more towards designing the internals of the field, goals, ramps, etc. I spoke with Woody one day about the field design, and he was telling me how they test various materials to see how well they would work out for the game they had in mind. He told me how for Stack Attack, they tested different mesh materials for the ramps, and different materials for the top platform, testing each for durability, grip, possible effects on robots, etc. etc. Aside from the actual R & D itself, new fields must be constructed every year for the growing number of regionals. And of course, you must have spare parts for each field. I heard somewhere that each field costs up to $20,000 to construct, and I don't think that includes spare items. So yes, the majority of the field already is modular (as anyone who has ever broken down the field after a regional would tell you). The major costs though are for the actual design of game components and fabrication of new fields, as well as repairs/upgrades to the current fields.

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by mgreenley

I did very much like the notice of the carpet though, maybe re-using carpet sections, they might already, would be a possibility.

I'll have to say--there's no way on earth FIRST could reuse carpet. I stepped onto Archimedes a few times to shoot some balls back up, and that carpet was...how would a gangster say it...to' up. Robots just wear out carpet, especially when dead reckoning goes wrong.

One image that really hit with me was when we took the white lines off of the field to refresh them before eliminations that Saturday. The area under the lines was like ten shades lighter than the regular field carpet.

[Justin]

Replying to my own thread! Cool! I'll throw this in. Say FIRST changed the game every 2 years. One thought I had is that perhaps this ratchets the level of compeitition up a notch. If you know all the strategies, you've tweaked your design...how do you win now?? Defense?? Driver skill??

-Justin

[Joshua May]

The one problem I really would have with this idea would be the reusing of parts. Say Team A had an excellent hanging system this year. If they brought the hanging aspect back in a few years, Team A may still have the arm laying around, or at least the designs of it. This saves Team A lots of time, while Team B, which wasn't around for Frenzy, still has to design a real good hanger.

My 2 cents

[Billfred]

It's a good idea, except that it poses three problems (assuming that it happened next year in my examples):

1) Rookies in 2005 are screwed. All of us have been to a competition (removing that initial "holy cow!" factor that hit everyone), have played the game (removing that "how are folks playing?" factor that hit everyone), and might have even won a match.

2) It might turn off some teams that were kinda on the bubble on whether or not to do FIRST next year. I mean, with thirteen games played so far, it'd be a bit of a bust to have a rerun, eh?

3) How do you build a robot for a game when you've already got a robot built? The only way I could see keeping the robot field remotely level is to come out with an all-new KOP (new motors, especially). I don't see that next year.

[MikeDubreuil]

I don't think FIRST should abandon creating a new field every year. There are so many more positives than negatives. If the field was similar the games would be too similar and play and the season would become boring.

As far as the financials go:
FIRST's 2003 revenue is about $15 million. Each field costs about $50,000. Assuming there's 6 fields that's $300k in fields. That's 2% of revenue. I don't think 2% is too much to spend for what is essentially the most important and exciting part of FIRST each year. Sure, we don't count Dean, Dave's or anyone elses labor from the game design comittee, but if we started billing out labor on this volunteer project we'd be in the hundreds-of-millions of dollars.

[ElfMaster]

I love the idea of a new game each year. It makes the game more exciting. As for making the field cheaper... we cut up the ramp we made last year and used it to make the platforms this year. I think so far they've done a fairly good job on the fields.

I really hope next year there isn't a ramp...

[MattK]

Justin I was there when you were talking about it and I agree, I think re-using parts of the game good. Lets say in 2 years we see a game that involved Bins and balls (think putting balls in bins) with a ramp and maybe a hanging bar.

This game would be completely different... you would most likely never be able to use just the robot for 03 or 04 for it. (How would your 2003 robot place BALLS in BINS or how would your 2004 robot climb a steep slope).

Another thing I think FIRST needs to work on is bringing down the cost of the practice field... THEY ARE SO EXPENSIVE TO BUILD!

[Billfred]

On the subject of practice fields, what's par for the course? This year's materials (according to the FIRST site) ran about $300-400.