Accepted Tethers

[Ken Leung]

I know FIRST's rulings are really inconsistent about a tether device. And a lot of the calling ended up judgment calls made by judges at each of the two regional, causing different ruling at each place. This unclear ruling from FIRST really caused a lot of unnecessary trouble for teams, and made it not fair for teams who followed the rules strictly and ended up developing something really complicated, or not using one at all.

So, instead of keep saying how bad this is, I think we got to suggest to FIRST what kind of ruling they SHOULD make a competition.

Here is what I think:

The send home device should be limited by the kit of parts/additional hardware list/small parts rule, so that they are made out of legal material. It should also follow the other rules such as damaging carpets/playing field, the spring rule, no projectile rule, and leaving parts on the playing field detached from the robot... And of course the robot has to fit inside the box and weight within 130 lbs.

Then, as for game violations, it should be limited by the no going under the goals rule, no actual entanglement, and no intentionally damaging other robots' parts rule. Simple as that. And, as long as you are not intentionally violating the rule, such as another team moving the goal on top of your extension, then it should be allowed.

I think this is the easiest way to call it from now on. A lot of teams' efforts were already wasted when they were told they can't use this or that, so, let's make it clear and not waste anymore teams' effort.

A lot of send home devices were results of great creativity and engineering, and teams worked really hard to come up with this to score points inside the game. They probably learned a lot about designing… I would even say that the send home device is as challenging as some other part of the robot. So, I don’t think FIRST should disallowed such devices. After all, isn’t creativity and ingenuity some of the points of this competition?

Call out the obvious illegal devices, and go back to the nice and generous FIRST Dean told us when they were explaining how a robot can score home zone 10 points just by touching the zone's carpet.

[Wayne Doenges]

At the Buckeye Regional the judges also allowed a tape measure to be used as a go-home device. I did notice that the numbers were on the bottom side. My opinion is that is was still TAPE MEASURE!
After the kick-off I mentioned using a tape measure. I was told it would be an entanglement issue. Even the engineers on YAHOO said so.
Our Tongue and Tail (TNT) weigh 11 lbs each. Think of the weight savings we could have had if I didn't get voted down.

*throws $.02 into kitty*

Wayne Doenges

[Eric Reed]

We are a team that prides ourselves on following the rules. Integrity is doing the right thing even when noone is watching. After seeing all the tethers out on the field, we were disappointed.

BUT...this seems to be a de facto rule change, and we will work on designing one of our own between regionals. Ours probably would not violate the more stringent entanglement rules, but I would not look down on any team that sees all the loose tethers on the field and feels a competitive need to duplicate them.

Any thoughts on this?

Eric.

[Amy Beth]

it makes me sick to see how much this is becoming a problem this year. Seems like it would have been a heckuva lot easier if FIRST just disallowed tether devices all together. This is coming from a team who spent hours agonizing over what sort of device would not be called an entanglement hazard, only to see the very ideas we nixed in our design meetings being used in competition without the judges even questioning! Anywho, our device might not even be on the robot when it comes to inspection, if we can't get a couple more pounds off . But i am looking forward very much to seeing how tethers get treated at nationals.
See y'all then
Amy

[Jim Meyer]

In Message 114 from the FRCtech2002


Tape measure tape, while less likely to be caught on a sharp edge than an piece of string, is still a relatively flexible material when used in long lengths, and might easily be run over and snagged by another robot or a goal that is being moved.


In Message 561 from the FRCtech2002


A) A tape measure or similar device would violate the entanglement rule. FIRSTsnow


It's bad enough that FIRST is allowing people to actually use tapemeasure tape, but FIRST inspectors are allowing much more flexible tethers than tape measure tape.

To say the least I am very disappointed is how FIRST has and is handling this issue.

If a team wants to follow the rules completely, should should they go and build a tether from a tape measure, since it has been allowed at some competitions, or should they stick to the FRCtech2002 ruling?

[Ken Leung]

It is rather discouraging that FIRST couldn't handle this issue strong and quick enough that all teams have a clear understand what we are supposed and not supposed to do.

Couple of thing that made this happen:

FIRST engineers not communicating with each other well enough.

Inspectors/referee are trained differently at each competition.

Too many questions making it really hard for Frc engineers to keep track of different issues, and take care of what's more important.

FIRST didn't design extensions into the game too well.

The issue dragged too long through out the whole season.


And, even though I understand why this happened, I think it is still unfair for teams to have to deal with this during their short 6 week build period. The unclearness and changing of rules made teams wasted a lot of time developing something more complicated than necessary, while someone got off easy with using simplier devices that doesn't follow the rule as strict. The tether design came into my mind... The 15 degree wedge you can use to lift goals up also came into mind....

These problems limited a lot of teams in expanding and expressing their creativity on their, which is one thing I liked about FIRST robotics competition. It is really inspiring and fun when watching all sort of different robot with different design accomplishing different goals on the playing field, while all FIRST put on the field are few simple objects and a roll of duct tape.

You can see at regional competitions the past two weekend, that robots ended up in pushing wars, and whoever pushed stronger wins. Imagine what would've happened if more robots have an extension device... It would've added another dynamic in the competition.


A lot of people seems to express the same feeling. And I don't mean to repeat what was said before... Just that with all the above reasons, I really think we ought to suggest to FIRST what improvement they can make to fix this problem next year... Instead of just posting in here ranting on and on.

Few things I hope FIRST would consider:

Better communication between FRC engineers.

Better web site for teams to ask questions in, one that is more organized and easier to use, and a place for teams and FRC engineers to look at official ruling of different issues, so there is nothing unclear.

Faster responds of questions, which is a part of improving the web site for posting questions. FIRST should improve the web site so that they can sort out which issue is more important and needed immediate attention. Simple busy questions can move to another group for other FRC engineers to answer.

All in all, I am just hopping FIRST would look at this whole process, and come up with a systematic way to solve problems.

Any other suggestions?

[Adrian Wong]

I would have preferred it if they used the FRCtech mailing list to submit questions only. Answers should be coupled into Team Updates (that are published more frequently). That way, things only have to be answered once and the ruling is out there for everyone to see. They can also check with all FRC engineers prior to publishing the team update.

[Jessi]

along with, what seems to be about everyone, i am really interested in seeing what happens at nationals. if the rules are obviously different at each regional then how are we supposed to know what will be legal at nationals. for any teams out there that are going to make a new tether i would be ready to take it off in case they change their minds yet again at nationals or any other regionals

jessi amt

[Mike Martus]

I was an inspector at the VCU regional.

When I asked about the tape measure issue, the entanglement issue and what were the guidelines I was told not to disqualify any robot based upon that.

What I was told was to only issue a warning that entangelement MAY get your robot disqualified and that this decision was the referrees only.

Clearly there is a mixed message from FIRST.

This makes it hard on us all.

Imangine being in the finals at Epcot, going for the gold, using the same device you have used all season. Your item gets deployed and a referee shuts you down because of entanglement, an opinion based situation.

How would you feel?