Attention engineers...What type are you and why?

[Madison]

Originally Posted by Elgin Clock

So, I have to pull out the white rabbit from this hat.
Would you trust your life to the heart dialisys machine Dean invented when he was about 20?

Of course, you understand that it's not as if Dean started a little assembly line in his dorm room and hospitals started handing the machine out at the door when he first came up with the idea, right? Dean may have designed the machine, but it was still the responsibility of professional engineers to evaluate the design to ensure its safety and functionality. Dean is a smart man, but by no means is he a one ring circus.

[Adam Y.]

Ooo I give up. The stupid computer logged me out. I will have a job working as an engineer by the end of my sophmore year. It is a program that alternates between work and schooling. There are at least two colleges that I know of that do this. These are real paying jobs and by the end of my college education I will have eighteen mothes of work experience.

[Andy Baker]

Originally Posted by Adam Y.

I will have a job working as an engineer by the end of my sophmore year. It is a program that alternates between work and schooling. There are at least two colleges that I know of that do this. These are real paying jobs and by the end of my college education I will have eighteen mothes of work experience.

This is a great experience. Most, if not all, engineering schools have similar placement programs for current students to have co-op jobs or internships at companies. Even the small engineering school I attended had a good co-op program. Not only do you get good money, but you also aquire marketable experience while figuring out what sort of engineer you want to be.

For any student who is getting an engineering degree, I suggest you get an internship or co-op* job. Both are very valuable when the time comes when you are looking for a full-time position.

* Traditionally, in engineering fields, internships are jobs worked during the summer months while co-op jobs are for students who alternate between work and school each semester.

Andy B.

[phrontist]

I would say that you are not an engineer until you've both obtained the aforementioned peice of paper AND done something with your tumescent engineers forebrain.

That said I do think that there are a few exceptions to the rule, Dean Kamen for instance. Another good one is Bill Gates who, if I'm not mistaken, dropped out of college to start microsoft. I'd consider him a software engineer. Not a GOOD software engineer but...

Astronouth: You've just become some sort of pariah in the FIRST community. I'd apologize, a lot, fast.

[ChrisH]

First to answer the question that started the thread:

I a mechanical because I always was fascinated by machines. I still am. I got my degree from the Univertsity of California, Irvine. I also was fortunate to work one summer as an intern for Rockwell Int'l on the B-1 program. After I graduated I started working here at Northrop Grumman. At the time I figured I would stay four or five years and then get out of aerospace. Somehow I'm still here, twenty two years later. I work doing the process tweaks that Andy Baker hates. But often these involve designing new tooling so I get to design stuff too.

Now to address the other topic that has come up:

In all fifty states to advertise your services as an engineer to the general public, you must have a Professional Engineer's license in the discipline you are practicing. As a Mechanical PE I can design an air conditioning system for a building, but I cannot design the building itself. That's a civil job and requires different expertise.

It is possible to become a PE without going to college. To do so you must first pass the Fundimentals of Engineering exam. I took it in my junior year in college and passed. Back then it was called the EIT (Engineer in Training) exam, but they cover pretty much the same stuff. All disciplines take the same FE exam. After passing the FE, you need to work under the supervision of a licensed engineer for four or six years. Four with an engineering degree and six without. Then you need to get references from several other engineers familiar with your work. At least one or two of these should be PEs. After all this you get to take an eight hour exam. If you pass, then you can legally call yourself an engineer. The exams are very broad. It is unlikely that a person who is just working someplace and trying to pass based on their experience would be able to do so. The questions generally cover all the corners of a good engineering curriculum.

So what about all these guys running around working at companies and calling themselves "engineers"? Most never bother to take the PE so how can they do that? First of all, their services are not marketed directly to the public. Their company develops products that are in turn sold to others. The company operstes under a "corporate license". Somebody there will be a PE and have "responsible charge" over the design of the products. If there is a liability issue with the product, that person will be on the stand in court and they'd better have some good answers.

As long as the "engineer" title is only used internally, it is acceptable for non-PEs to be called engineers by the company they work for. Sometimes the "supervision" can be pretty tenuous. There are three or four levels between me and the "chief engineer" on the programs I work. But then I can sign off on stuff myself if I want

Call yourself anything you want, but the Engineer title has a price tag. You can earn it through study and hard work, or you can just hang out a shingle. But the later will probably earn you at least a fine and possibly jail time.

ChrisH

[Gary Dillard]

Oh I can see this reply will take at least my lunch break....

I have Bachelor of Science and Master of Engineering degrees in Mechanical Engineering. My dad was a Civil Engineer and he enjoyed his work so I leaned toward engineering; in high school I decided I wanted to pursue Solar Energy and most of that work was in mechanical. University of Florida had the premier Solar Energy research program so I went there; interestingly, the only course I ever took in solar energy was taught in EE (Solar Electrics).

I have my PE license but have never "officially" signed anything off as a PE.

My father was a PE, but he didn't have a degree (that's no longer possible to do, at least in Florida). He couldn't afford to finish college, so he took engineering correspondence courses while working as a draftsman to learn the material; he eventually made partner in his engineering firm. He had the education but not the diploma.

My personal belief is that either a state license or a diploma from an accredited engineering program at a university/college makes you an engineer. I work with alot of pretty smart people who are not engineers, some of whom can do certain engineering functions better than me. I'm not necessarily better or smarter than any of them - I've just been blessed with the opportunity to go to college and get a formal education so that gives me several advantages. The biggest distinction is the range of my capabilities, which is what I thinks distinguishes an engineer - the ability to use the scientific method to solve any problem.

When I graduated from college I worked for TVA at Browns Ferry Nuclear Plant directing field modifications to make sure they were in accordance with code. I went from there to McDonnell Douglas Astronautics (now Boeing) in Huntsville designing structures for Spacelab. I came back to Florida to work at Pratt & Whitney designing and building advanced gas turbine engine components (afterburners, nozzles), and I ended up at Perry Technologies designing and analyzing underwater vehicles. One week I'm detailing a mechanism in ProE, the next week I'm performing structural analysis in Nastran or developing my own code for shock loading, the next week I'm doing heat transfer analysis to keep electronics cool. Each time I went to a new job there were designers with tons of experience doing the same thing; if you design pumps for 25 years you'll get pretty good at it, but if that's the limit of your knowledge then that's all you'll be able to do. If something major changes that's outside your experience, you need to understand the "whys" and not just the "whats". I can usually tell who has a degree and who doesn't by the questions they ask.

Dean is no doubt very smart, very gifted, and very good at what he does. I'm sure he educates himself as necessary to make the right decisions. I wouldn't consider him an engineer, but I'd probably hire him anyway The best person for a particular job may not be an engineer.

[Collin Fultz]

so i'm thinking maybe we need a new title for this thread...or a new thread all together...i like this discussion...just not under this title

much love

-Collin "I'm not an engineer but I play on a robotics team" Fultz

[Billfred]

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

engineer n. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.

Originally Posted by m-w.com

engineer tr. v. to contrive or plan out usually with more or less subtle skill and craft.

Originally Posted by m-w.com

engineering n. 2 a : the application of science and mathematics by which the properties of matter and the sources of energy in nature are made useful to people

The way I read these definitions, every FIRST team there's ever been has engineered (verb). However, very few of us on this board are engineers (noun).

As for the whole credentials thing, let me try things this way. I have no problem with a person engineering (verb) with the oversight of an engineer (noun). Somewhere in the process, I want to see someone with that purdy piece of paper give the bridge I'm driving on their stamp of approval. It tells me that someone who's gone through the whole process has looked at it and declared it safe to the point that I can send my CR-V going over it at sixty miles an hour without fearing that I'm going into the drink within reason.

I'll take that back to FIRST. I've stood around a FIRST field long enough to trust such an arrangement. Of course, such robots are given the twice-over by inspectors, which one could argue are engineers in the field of FIRST robot engineering.

I don't mean to trivially create a new field of engineering with that thought, but when you consider that engineers have to look at a problem and make a solution that is both safe to the general public and environment (how many times did you and your team have to file something while being inspected so that you wouldn't pop balls?) and fit within the time, money, and size constraints, you see the parallels.

I hope that got my point across right...if it didn't, please refrain from throwing rocks at me.

[Max Lobovsky]

Let me start by saying that I had a similar discussion via PMs with Ken Wittlief a few months ago about how its bad to trivialize the title engineer and I completely agreed with him. I am also the son of a PE and I think I have a pretty good grasp of the work involved in reaching that status.

I think two slightly different meanings of "engineer" are being discussed. One who engineers, and one whose profession is engineering. As stated by engineers in this thread, many people "engineer" and do not have the honor of being engineers by profession or title. It would be imporper to call them an engineer because that is not their trade. In the US, it can be your trade only if you are certified. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying someone did engineering work even if they aren't certified.

Though Astronouth is guilty of the same trivializing that I was, I'd like to point out that he never actually called himself an engineer, and all the righteous "if a 15 year old bla bla bla" is a bit out of place. I think the most important thing you can gather from his post is that he does respect the degree and the work an engineer has to go through because as he said, he realizes that that usually makes the more qualified person for the job.

Because I know some people will take this the wrong way, I ask you to please read this post in its entirety if you care to reply.

-Max (aspiring engineer/physicist)

[Chris Fultz]

Wow - this thread certainly took off!

Regarding engineers and engineering education - my view is the most important part of an engineering education is that you learn to think and learn to solve problems. You answer one question and find another.

A professor once told our class: "You don't know what you don't know - and that’s what will bite you in the a**". The more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. Every answer has two more questions.

An engineering degree opens doors. It is a requirement in many companies and many disciplines. Where the degree is from may also be a factor – some companies only recruit from the top schools because of the costs of recruiting. After a few years out of school, your performance and demonstrated knowledge begin to outweigh the value of the institution that granted the degree.

**
Regarding the initial reason for the thread – my info is below. A little long, but my career path has been somewhere different from most of the others in this post.

BS Mechanical Technology, Purdue @ Indianapolis
MBA Finance and Marketing, Indiana University
MS Program Management, Penn State (complete mid-2005)
I hold 1 US Patent for a Valve Lock Design

I have a Mechanical Technology (best described as more application oriented and less theory oriented than pure engineering) degree from Purdue at Indianapolis. I was a Co-Op at a small metallurgical company. Exceptional opportunity. I graduated with about 2 years of ‘real world’ experience. I began life at Allison Gas Turbine (now Rolls-Royce) as a Reliability Engineer, focusing on field problems and analyzing trends in failures. This helped identify where engineering resources should be applied to fix field issues.

I moved into project engineering where I was responsible for the development and certification of a new model of helicopter engine. I defined test plans, coordinated with the customer and the FAA, wrote summary and compliance papers and got more into the integration and management of the program (cost and schedule). I had to learn a little about a lot, instead of a lot about a little.

About 5 years ago, I became a Program Manager. My current role is Program Manager for the Model 250 engine line – the engine that powers most light helicopters you see flying around (Bell, MD – like the news and police helicopters that were at the IRI if you saw them). I am responsible for determining budgets, agreeing on what engineering work will be funded, making sure engine and spare parts schedules are met and coordinating with aircraft & helicopters manufacturers. I am becoming more of a “business person” and less of an “engineer” everyday, but it is still important that I know and understand the engineering issues and technical challenges to make safe and sound business decisions for a very technical product.

An engineering education can open many, many doors to other areas of a business. If you look at the leaders of many major corporations (especially manufacturing, aerospace, hi-tech), you will see a lot of engineers at the top. The skills you learn are transferable across businesses.

Hope this helps ----

[Elgin Clock]

Wow.. All I have to say is wow..
Look at all this expertise we have within FIRST. If anyone ever needs a job and posted what they do in this thread, you can just e-mail potential employers a link to this thread.

Seems to me like a lot of posts from the true "engineers" are turning into resume type posts

I wish I had all the (many, many) years of combined knowledge you all have accumulated on your road to becoming engineers.

[Mike Ciance]

Originally Posted by Cory

But the fact remains that until you hold your degree in your hot little hand, you *are not* a real engineer. I totally agree with Andy. To see 15 year old kids going around the forums calling themselves engineers (Im not trying to pick on you or single you out) is pretty ridiculous in my opinion, and really does degrade all the work that they did to get where they are.

Heck, I know CPR and basic first aid, but I dont go around telling people I'm an EMT.

and personally, I would be VERY scared if I knew a building, car, or airplane had been designed by an "engineer" who possesses no degree, or has ever had formal training, and was "self taught".

$0.02

Cory

and if that poorly engineered car crashed, we would want a real EMT, and not cory

of course, i'd rather have cory than somebody who knows nothing about first aid, just as i would rather have astronouth7303 than somebody who knows nothing about engineering

[Marc P.]

My opinions:

Reading through this thread I see multiple definitions of the word "engineer." I see the term defined as a profession, a hobby, and of course, the literal dictionary meaning. I think it's important to differentiate the use of the word with regards to a title or label. Unfortunately, (as the case may be with other words in the English language as well,) Engineer can be used in many different forms of context, some of which may be offensive to others.

I see an Engineer, as one who works in the profession of engineering (be it electrical, mechanical, aerospace, or what have you). No doubt respected individuals, in accomplishment and education, as well as spirit and passion for what they do. A professional engineer performs (or performed at one time,) engineering related tasks: designing, manufacturing, testing, tweaking, fabricating, etc. as part of an every day, full time job.

I also see hobbyist engineers, or those who perform engineering tasks on occasion, on their own time. In this instance the term is synonymous with other activity-related titles, like a kid who plays on a little-league baseball team is a baseball player. Someone who plays the piano in their spare time is a pianist. Not by profession, but by actively involving themselves in some aspect of the function. So kids involved in FIRST can call themselves engineers, although that's not to say they are professional engineers. That is still a very important distinction. But again, because the term "engineer" can be used multiple ways, it can still indicate someone who spends time engineering something, even it not professionally. Just like a little league player is not a professional baseball player, it does not mean they aren't any less of a baseball player in general.

And of course, the literal definition, which supports both of my arguments-

The first entry for "engineer" from dictionary.com-

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

"One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering."

But further down the page, as one of the alternate definitions-

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

"A person who uses scientific knowledge to solve practical problems."

The first definition supports the professional nature of the term, and the second seems to include students involved in the engineering aspects of FIRST, as indeed, any FIRST student capable of designing and building any mechanism would fall into the category of "using scientific knowledge to solve practical problems."

Multiple meanings- just one of those nice little features of the English language

[Erin Rapacki]

Hello,

I just recently switched from Mechanical Engineering to Industrial Engineering. Why?? Well, lets just say that through my continuing participation in FIRST... I'm still learning about myself and what I'd like to do. When in High School, my thought was that "robots are cool, I'll try Mechanical!" Then over the past year, my involvement took a very unique twist that opened my eyes a lot...

I have a year's worth of Engineering experience: two summer internships at Hamilton Sundstrand and six months at DEKA. The two summers were spent helping the Project Engineers, and the six months were spend doing Quality work as a test technician on the iBOT. Everyone knew I was a ME student, but for some reason (particularly noticable at DEKA), I never really had a natural inclination or curiosity as to what the MEs were doing. Instead, I liked what my managers were doing with their problems of money/time/people. I watched them very closely.

I helped with two FIRST events where I learned how to event coordinate, plan, and manage large projects. I loved doing it. I loved taking those kinds of ideas & problems... and turning them into a reality. So it hit me! I could get an ME degree and be hired as project or quality anyway (which happens to the people who may not be very competitive at design... like me, nobody knows me in FIRST for robot design because I haven't done any in the past three years), or I could go get that IE degree and be even more competitive in project & quality. My aim is to get an MBA afterwards.

So there it is, my goal is to be a project-manager and it seems that Industrial Engineering (in NU terms that is) is probably the best Business undergrad degree you can get.

Life is starting to make sense



ByE


erin

[Al Skierkiewicz]

Erin,
Many people have revelations throughout their college career. Remember a person who loves what they are doing never has to work a day in their life.