YMTC: Can teams start cutting metal for 2005?

[Natchez]

You Make The Call (YMTC) is a series of situations where you can be the ref and make the call.

Based on the 2004 rules, can a team begin cutting metal before Christmas for parts that will go on their 2005 robot if they are only making parts that are duplicates of commercially available parts & assemblies?

You Make The Call!

Author's note: This YMTC was motivated by the now available AM Transmissions that has been discussed at the Andymark.biz post.

[RogerR]

Originally Posted by Natchez

Based on the 2004 rules, can a team begin cutting metal before Christmas for parts that will go on their 2005 robot if they are only making parts that are duplicates of commercially available parts & assemblies?

i say no. no matter how close the team-produced part is to the commercial part, they're still fabricating parts. rules are rules, and fabricating parts outside of build period and competition is against them.

[Allison K]

I say yes. If it's a duplicate of what is available commercially then what makes cutting it different then buying it. Other than possibly the fact that buying it pre-cut more costly.

Allison

Edit - I'm not thinking yes to something like "well lets cut plates for our gearboxes now, because we could buy them if we wanted too." I'm thinking "We have this large pile of scrap materials so let's cut off what we can use and throw it into one pile, and throw all the stuff we can't into another pile."

[Cory]

Is precutting metal any different than buying a plate of aluminum and specifying a custom size you want it cut to?

I don't think so.

[Peter Matteson]

Any metal cutting means its not an off the shelf item and should not be made. Making prototypes, upgrades to old practice robots, new test bed robots even would be fine but all metal cutting should be done after the kick-off.

[Max Lobovsky]

Originally Posted by Allison K

I say yes. If it's a duplicate of what is available commercially then what makes cutting it different then buying it. Other than possibly the fact that buying it pre-cut more costly.

Allison

That's eactly why its different. Cutting before may allow a team to save money giving them an unfair advantage over other teams.

[Mark Pettit]

What's the difference between purchasing/stocking up on things like extra PWM cables, servos, keyed rod, wheels, etc. and cutting a piece of metal you intend to use for your 2005 robot?
In any case, you're taking the risk of not being able to use any of the stuff you're preparing based on the not-yet-released 2005 rules.
Similarly, what if you manufacture a robot base (or at least cut pieces for it) to the "standard" 30" x 36" dimensions only to find out that the "standards" have changed for 2005?
Let them (us) cut and suffer the possibility of a consequent rule change that renders the piece(s) useless.

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by Mark Pettit

What's the difference between purchasing/stocking up on things like extra PWM cables, servos, keyed rod, wheels, etc. and cutting a piece of metal you intend to use for your 2005 robot?
In any case, you're taking the risk of not being able to use any of the stuff you're preparing based on the not-yet-released 2005 rules.
Similarly, what if you manufacture a robot base (or at least cut pieces for it) to the "standard" 30" x 36" dimensions only to find out that the "standards" have changed for 2005?
Let them (us) cut and suffer the possibility of a consequent rule change that renders the piece(s) useless.

Mark, the difference is the rules forbid you cutting the metal. That is part of fabrication. I am sorry if I offend but this is a black and white issue. White, you follow the rules and do NO work on the robot till kickoff. Black, you throw away gracious professionalism and sportsmanship and cheat as stated by Chris.

I once had a plaque on my wall that said something like this. I live by my standards, if I decide to do something against my standards I lower them so that I do not feel guilty. This is happening so often in our society. I believe that FIRST has higher ideals and that sometimes we must raise our standards to meet those of FIRST.

On the other hand, and only to throw a wrench into things, the 2005 rules are not out yet. That means that you can work to your hearts content without feeling guilty. However once the rules come out and if like last year say no building before kickoff, then you would not be able, with a clear conscience, be able to use those pieces on your robot. The call is yours and you may be the only one who knows what your actions are. Remember that if the students know what is done and we do nothing to correct the problem they will receive a lesson. I hope that it is not a bad one.

[Rich Kressly]

Prototype your brains out now, but if it's going to be shipped as a part of your 2005 robot, you'll have to make a new one after kickoff.

[scitobor 617]

I believe that it is ok for a team to begin buying parts and supplies but it is a clear violation of the rules to begin maching or build any part that is to be used in the competition.

[Peter Matteson]

Originally Posted by scitobor 617

I believe that it is ok for a team to begin buying parts and supplies but it is a clear violation of the rules to begin maching or build any part that is to be used in the competition.

Yes it is okay to buy generic parts, i.e. gears, sprockets, bearings and raw material. You can get parts that you think you will need as long as any other team could do the same.

Yes it is a clear violation to start matching or building parts for the competition. This violates the intention of the rules as there were last year. Frankly I like the way the rules were written regarding intent for such matter

[SpaceOsc]

all teams have 6 weeks, to do as much as they can with there robots.

cutting metal is something all teams will have to do at some point and is time consuming. and if all do it in the 6 weeks then its fair.

but if you don't need to cut your metal during the 6 week period because you cut it already.

then its simply unfair . you have an advantage over other teams is not based on effort (such as money with fundrasing) or resources (such as a metal shop) and all those other unbalanced things in the league that give some teams a better opportunity and yet we understand and tolerate in the FIRST community.

As we all know the 2004 rules were written with intent not literacy in mind

DONT CUT YOUR METAL!!!! not yet at least

[JVN]

This seems pretty straight forward (based on the 2004 rules):

• If you actually buy the part, it is okay to do so before the 6 weeks -- as long as it is NOT modified before kickoff, you can throw it on the robot.
• If you MAKE or MODIFY anything before kickoff, it can't go on the robot.

These is no confusion in my mind. This seems to be what FIRST intended.

Copying a COTS part still involves MAKING something (or MODIFYING something) and would therefore be illegal.

Originally Posted by Natchez

Finally, I thought that it would be a good idea to contact local machine shops and see if they would manufacture a bunch of AM Transmissions and we would just give them to the Greater Houston Teams (about 15). We would parse the work out to several shops and each team in Houston could be shifting by January 10th. We would also set up tours of the machine shops for the students to see exactly how the trannies were built. Since machine shops in Houston traditionally have a slow period in December, this would be a perfect opportunity to introduce the shops to FIRST and get them involved. Of course, you know the long term plan: get them to support a team. A special thanks to AM for releasing the drawings or this idea could never get off the ground. Regardless whether the teams can use them on their '05 robot, I am going to initiate the effort hopefully to help some teams out.

It's interesting to note:
I've done some cost comparisons and -- making your own version of the AndyMark shifter isn't that much cheaper than just buying one.

The cost of gears/raw stock is about half as much as the AndyMark tranny costs. The difference being that you save TONS of manufacturing time buying the AndyMark Trannys.

Of course... this is where many people would argue: "But our students will get more out of it, if they actually build the trannys themselves." This discussion isn't about that. We've had that debate before... and I don't care to see a rehash of it now. Everyone agrees to disagree. (I disagree STRONGLY with that above statement.)
It all boils down to economics...

Run the cost numbers yourself:
$360 seems more and more reasonable, every time I do so.

John

[Marc P.]

Originally Posted by JVN

It's interesting to note:
I've done some cost comparisons and -- making your own version of the AndyMark shifter isn't that much cheaper than just buying one.

The cost of gears/raw stock is about half as much as the AndyMark tranny costs. The difference being that you save TONS of manufacturing time buying the AndyMark Trannys.

Run the cost numbers yourself:
$360 seems more and more reasonable, every time I do so.

John

That's a great point. The rules state any machining work done by an outside shop by non-team members must be counted against the $3500 spending limit, even if donated. The amount of time it would take to build these things at the rate of a professional machine shop plus the cost of the raw materials would easily be well above $360.

[Natchez]

Everyone, you are soooooo wise! And I was sooooooo wrong! You have convinced me that the 6 week period is sacred and we should do everything in our power to see that teams do not benefit from off-season efforts other than the knowledge that is gained from those efforts.

Therefore, I propose the following rules be implemented.

RULE 041209-A: A FIRST team must not view, touch, or use any parts constructed or acquired before January 8, 2005 other than those from the approved vendor list (or exact duplicates from an alternate vendor).

RULE 041209-B: A FIRST team can not view, touch, or use any parts acquired from a FIRST-friendly vendor before January 19, 2005 (must be procured from FIRST-friendly vendor ... no alternative vendors accepted).

It's simple and puts all teams on a pretty level playing field going into the season. Here are some explanations on the proposed rules.

• The approved vendor list would include raw materials companies like McMaster-Carr, Small Parts, MSC, Newark, etc.

• The approved FIRST-friendly vendor list would include companies like Andy-Mark, Lu's Crab Base Manufacturing Company, etc.

• To become a FIRST-friendly vendor, a vendor would have to meet certain requirements that would include being able to meet team demand, disclose all drawings and schematics of products, etc. Basically, exactly what Andy-Mark already does.

• The delay between the kickoff and the use of FIRST-friendly vendor items is to take the advantage away from teams that can buy an assortment of mechanisms before they really know what they are going to use to solve this year's game. This will give AM & Lu's CBM Company a chance to get the assemblies to the teams before January 19th. The alternative is to require teams to procure items after kickoff but this is not fair to AM or Lu's Crab Base Manufacturing Company.

• Teams can not use old robots to get insight into the 2005 game. The robots must not be viewed, touched, or used after January 8th. If you wish to teach your team about your old robots then it would have to be done before January 8th. The robots must be "locked up" on January 7th and can not be used until after the ship date. I know that the gut reaction is to say, "WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT!" but think about it for a while.

• Think of this concept as being on an island for 6 weeks with internet access, tools, a bunch of raw materials (aluminum, bearings, wheels, sprockets, etc.), a FIRST kit of parts, along with a FedEx daily delivery from approved and FIRST-friendly vendors. AND 10,458 Krispy Kreme donuts.

Start shooting,
Lucien