can there be agressive play?

[i_am_Doug]

yea like pushing or raming?

[Alaina]

You can probably go to the FIRST website and search for the rules of the previous game.
But for defense purposes pushing or pinning robots are permitted but only for a few seconds. Say, for instance, to keep a robot away from capping a goal or getting to the bar. But if a ref feels that the robot's action was unsafe or too aggressive, it will be disabled for the rest of the match.

[Koko Ed]

Not purposely, but FIRST doesn't tell you to build a hearty robot for nothing...

[Lisa Perez]

Originally Posted by Alaina

You can probably go to the FIRST website and search for the rules of the previous game.
But for defense purposes pushing or pinning robots are permitted but only for a few seconds. Say, for instance, to keep a robot away from capping a goal or getting to the bar. But if a ref feels that the robot's action was unsafe or too aggressive, it will be disabled for the rest of the match.

In addition to this, usually FIRST referees will make a signal which shows that you have been pushing too long.. If they also think you're coming from high speeds at another end of the field to hit the opposing robot, they will either warn you or disqualify you.

In the case that you go at a high speed from one end to another and slow down EXTREMELY before you play defense by pushing the robot, well that's completely legal.

As long as you keep your eyes on the field and on what the referee may be signaling, and not intentionally try to ruin another robot, you're good to go!

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Lisa Perez

In addition to this, usually FIRST referees will make a signal which shows that you have been pushing too long.. If they also think you're coming from high speeds at another end of the field to hit the opposing robot, they will also either warn you and/or disqualify you.

In the case that you go at a high speed from one end to another and slow down EXTREMELY before you play defense by pushing the robot, well that's completely legal.

As long as you keep your eyes on the field and on what the referee may be signaling, and not intentionally try to ruin another robot, you're good to go!

That's not always the case.
Observe.

[Kyle Love]

When you building your robot I think you should make it to take some hits. Now, I don't agree with flagrant, needless ramming, but there should be some pushing and shoving. It makes the matches more fun to watch! There does need to be a defined line where to stop "friendly contact" and "needless contact".

-Kyle

[jonathan lall]

Yes, certainly there can, but you just have to make sure you don't cross the line between strategic and malicious. Blocking is fine. Pinning is fine (though there are rules that both teams and refs have to follow about this, so know them well), slowing down an opponent or getting them stuck on something is fine. Pushing is fine as long as it isn't into something out of bounds. If a robot happens to not be robust and ceases to function under this contact, too bad for the robot. Remember that if two robots hit each other, they both take the same amount of punishment; the modifier is how much of this either robot can take.

Bottom line though: your answer will be in the rules next year, and not in the opinion of a ChiefDelphi poster. What one poster might think is legal, another might (perhaps wrongly) think is malicious. Imagine that poster built the robot you just wrecked. Or worse still, imagine that poster was a referee...

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

That's not always the case.
Observe.

I don't understand. Are you suggesting the tipping of your robot in that match was illegal?

[sanddrag]

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

I don't understand. Are you suggesting the tipping of your robot in that match was illegal?

Koko Ed

At what time remaining in the match was the event we are supposed to be looking at?

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by jonathan lall

Bottom line though: your answer will be in the rules next year, and not in the opinion of a ChiefDelphi poster. What one poster might think is legal, another might (perhaps wrongly) think is malicious. Imagine that poster built the robot you just wrecked. Or worse still, imagine that poster was a referee...



I don't understand. Are you suggesting the tipping of your robot in that match was illegal?

No, I was just saying that there are times there are agressive play in FIRST. We had a built in weakness in our robot (too top heavy) and it got tipped over easily and other teams at the championship took advatage of it and slammed us often. It was fair. If you don't like getting tipped don't build a robot that tips.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by sanddrag

Koko Ed

At what time remaining in the match was the event we are supposed to be looking at?

At 1:29 left in the match 662 raced across the platform and threw us off the platform to the floor.

[artic_raven]

the rules always say that this isnt a game where you try to destroy your opponate, which is true. but no matter what the challenge is there will be ramming, pinning and blocking.

[Wetzel]

You can be aggressive, but not destructive. That is how it has been in the past, and likely will be in the future.

As always, read the new rules.

Wetzel

[Alex Golec]

Originally Posted by Kyle45

There does need to be a defined line where to stop "friendly contact" and "needless contact".

This is one of, if not the hardest line for FIRST to define. Even so, it is also difficult to have enforced in the exact same manner every match because of the different referees at each regional. For example, in my team's past year, (which consider a bit of a controvesial one) we had different decisions made against us. Here is a example of the blurry line. [just as a note to readers- please do not start discussion on this case... the topic has been beaten to a pulp already.] No call was made against us or our opponents. However at IRI, our drivers were attempting to prevent a robot from hanging, and accidentally closed the arm grippers on our opponent and then released them- while it was accidental, it could also have been viewed as dangerous and threatening to our opponents. In that match, we were disqualified. The referees view it as too aggressive for fair play.
In the end, you just have to keep a respect for your opponents and their robots- they worked hard to construct them as well.

_Alex

[dubious elise]

i feel that, within reason, yes, agressive play should be allowed. i define reason on a similar plane as FIRST, blocking/pushing/and otherwise forcing your opponent should only be allowed for a few seconds at a time before penalties should be enforced. For obvious reasons, full speed ramming (like what happened in Koko Ed's video) is dangerous, not gracious or professional in any way, and should not be allowed.

But whether you run your robot into a concrete pillar in st. louis while programming *on accident!*, or anticipate getting hit around a bit by the competition, a steel frame is always a safe choice

...by the way, we did more damage to that pillar (a few small chunks flew off ) than we did to our robot (nothing)

[Koko Ed]

In my three years in FIRST and the competitions I have attended I preferred the "physical" challenges over the "cerbral" ones. The 2002 rug game was fairly boring particualrly in the playoffs. One robot would race to the goals and just hold them in their zone while the other allaince would pull with utter fultility to move them and fail miserably more often than not. Total snoozefest.
The Stack Attack game was pretty fun with it's King-of-the-Hill element even if the main goal of the competiton inadvertant bred it's mutant illigitimant child (cue dramitic music) COLLUSION (is it just me or is that word veing used wrong in that context?) !!!!
Last years competiton was a brilliant mix of the physical (king of the hill battle for the bar) and the cerebral (so many strategies could be used to win and an incredible array of many different kinds of robots of all kinds of shapes and sizes). The most exciting moment I remember from last year happened in the playoffs at Buckeye (I think it was a semi-final match) when team 378 the Circut Stompers had latched onto the bar but had not pulled up yet becasue team 279 and their amazing clamshell bot was tryign to get on the bar. 378 tried blocking them but 279 latched on and 378 tried to sit on them but 279 would not be denied and pulled themselves up and took 378 off of the bar abd down to the floor. The place went nuts.
I know there are alot of old schoolers who fret that FIRST is turing into The Robotics Competition That Cannot Be Mentioned but truth be told y'all need to get off of your high horses. This aint some country club bred proper gentlemans game where we have to have absolute silence when the robot are doing their manuvers. There's loud music and even louder cheering. This is as high octanane enegry as any sporting event out there. A little contact never hurt anyone (and truth be told it's kinda fun even if you're the one getting slammed).
It's not like were going to turn into The Robotics Competition That Cannot Be Mentioned part II. But if you want the general public to get on board guess what? They like the rough stuff (and please don't say "well we don't need them" because we do. If you want to change the culture sometimes you need to change a little yourself). Which do you prefer? Last years multifacited game (that included rough play) or the four team alliance cure for insomnia from 2000? We can still be rough and smart because FIRST isn't just innovative it's imaginative.