Pushing robots out of loading zone

[jgannon]

<S05> A ROBOT may not impede the placement of TETRAS on the loading structures or the hand-off of a TETRA by a HUMAN PLAYER to a ROBOT. No HUMAN PLAYER or field attendant may be accosted by a ROBOT while placing TETRAS. Violations will result immediate disabling of the offending ROBOT, and disqualification of the alliance.

Based on this rule, is it legal to push a robot out of a manual loading zone while the human player is approaching, thus making the handoff illegal? (I can't find anything that would make such a maneuver illegal at an automatic loading zone.)

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by jgannon

Based on this rule, is it legal to push a robot out of a manual loading zone while the human player is approaching, thus making the handoff illegal? (I can't find anything that would make such a maneuver illegal at an automatic loading zone.)

No,you cannot, based on rule G15, no interfering... it's stated in a few other threads here too.
Once a robot is in the loading zone, you cannot touch or interfere with a robot retrieving a tetra.

[Cory]

This rule is especially relevant while in human loading zones. Safety is paramount in everything FIRST does. Imagine how dangerous it would be if a robot could shove your robot, as your human player is reaching onto the field right in front of it.

[Koko Ed]

Originally Posted by Cory

This rule is especially relevant while in human loading zones. Safety is paramount in everything FIRST does. Imagine how dangerous it would be if a robot could shove your robot, as your human player is reaching onto the field right in front of it.

I wonder if FIRST would go as far as to disable the attacking robot.

[Bill Gold]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I wonder if FIRST would go as far as to disable the attacking robot.

It shouldn't be a surprise. FIRST has always been very vigilant when safety is breached.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by Koko Ed

I wonder if FIRST would go as far as to disable the attacking robot.

yes, <S05> states that not only will you be disabled, you will be DQed.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by Lil' Lavery

yes, <S05> states that not only will you be disabled, you will be DQed.

Yeah, it seems like you get DQ - 30pts if you interfere in the HP load side, but if you interfere on the auto load side, it's just a 30pt deduction.

I wonder how they will judge that, since it states a DQ for impeding the "trade-off between HP and robot"... so does that mean you might only get 30pt deduction if the HP didn't get there yet (not yet handing off tetra), or a DQ-30 no matter what, if you interfere at any time on the HP side?

I'd almost rather see the same penalty for both sides, for interference any time in load zone, being DQ - 30pts.... just for consistency sake. But at least it seems like the number and variance of penalties has been reduced this year.

[Lil' Lavery]

Originally Posted by AmyPrib

Yeah, it seems like you get DQ - 30pts if you interfere in the HP load side, but if you interfere on the auto load side, it's just a 30pt deduction.

I wonder how they will judge that, since it states a DQ for impeding the "trade-off between HP and robot"... so does that mean you might only get 30pt deduction if the HP didn't get there yet (not yet handing off tetra), or a DQ-30 no matter what, if you interfere at any time on the HP side?

I'd almost rather see the same penalty for both sides, for interference any time in load zone, being DQ - 30pts.... just for consistency sake. But at least it seems like the number and variance of penalties has been reduced this year.

In many a situation, 30pts isnt much better than a DQ anyway....
but still, i wouldnt run the risk anyway, even if your up by more than 30 and they might steal a row and somehow come out with a win or something, to risky.
Also, if it hits, or comes dangerously close to hitting, the field attendant, DQ as well, as they might not be completly out of the area by the time the robot goes for the next tetra.

[meaubry]

Do you know if the 30 pts penalty is an alliance or team penalty? If its an alliance penalty, I suppose the partners won't be all that happy with the team that reduced the alliance score and also shot their chances of getting the bonus for having all 3 teams back home (I am assuming the bad robot will be turned off immediately and not have time to drive too far) That should eliminate alot of interaction around that area of the field. I will also assume that the penalty will still apply even after the human player gets back on the pressure pad - this could be a good place to stay until the coast is clear!

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by meaubry

Do you know if the 30 pts penalty is an alliance or team penalty?

I don't know how they would apply a 30pt penalty to just one team, since the score is an alliance score. So the 30pts would come off that alliance's score. If someone gets a DQ, I believe it's a DQ for the alliance.

[Aignam]

If in having a pushing match or playing defense, one or both of the robots happen to cross over or accidentally touch the loading zones, but there is obviously no intent to use the loading zone, is it still considered illegal?

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by Aignam

If in having a pushing match or playing defense, one or both of the robots happen to cross over or accidentally touch the loading zones, but there is obviously no intent to use the loading zone, is it still considered illegal?

That would be a good question for Q/A. I think the whole "intent to use the loading zone" would be a big debate. But I agree in that if you are in a pushing situation, and you push them into the loading zone, they could claim that they were trying to get a tetra and that it should be a penalty.
I don't know how they will enforce, interpret, or play out this rule. I think it will be difficult since the rule allows you to be touching any part of the zone to be considered inside it. The rule states that that zone is not intended as a "safe" zone for teams to squat in during the match, but as a safety issues so that tetras can be loaded without injury. In a pushing match scenario, I think it would be difficult for the opponent to see across the field and know if his prey is touching that zone or not. I don't know. This one will be an interesting rule.

[Deltafrog]

You are allowed to stop them from getting into the loading zone in the first place though!

[Stu Bloom]

Originally Posted by AmyPrib

I don't know how they would apply a 30pt penalty to just one team, since the score is an alliance score. So the 30pts would come off that alliance's score. If someone gets a DQ, I believe it's a DQ for the alliance.

I'm not yet clear on exactly how these penalties will be imposed, but it is possible to penalize a single team. While each team in an alliance gets the same score, any individual team's score could be reduced by the penalty amount. We are supposed to be working WITH our alliance partners, but we cannot control their actions. And it would be unfortunate for the entire alliance to be penalized for the ungracious actions of a single team.

[AmyPrib]

Originally Posted by Stu Bloom

I'm not yet clear on exactly how these penalties will be imposed, but it is possible to penalize a single team. While each team in an alliance gets the same score, any individual team's score could be reduced by the penalty amount. We are supposed to be working WITH our alliance partners, but we cannot control their actions. And it would be unfortunate for the entire alliance to be penalized for the ungracious actions of a single team.

Hmm... You know... when I read G06, about a HP leaving the HP pad too soon, the "team" will get a 10pt penalty. Then if it's serious, that "team" may be disabled and DQ'd.

In S05 rule, a robot may not impede the hand-offs of tetras, or the auto loading by field attendant, or the robot will be disabled, and DQ of the "alliance".

But.. in reading G15 with the no interfere rule, it does say that if a violation occurs, a 30pt penalty assessed to the "alliance"... they throw 3 separate flags (10pt ea).

There are some unclear penalty pt assessments in G13, G17, and G21. Just says a 10pt penalty will be thrown (for the respective violation), but doesn't say to team or alliance.

G22 says is the coach touches the controls, the robot will be disabled and "team" DQ'd.

There may need to be some clarification from FIRST on some of these and how they will deduct points and assess penalties in all cases.